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Avodah Zarah 42b

עבודה זרה מ״ב ע״ב

Learn Avodah Zarah 42b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Pieces of an אשרה and a nest on it; found vessels with figures of the sun, moon and dragon, and רב ששת's list of forbidden images

Overview

The גמרא asks why fallen leaves of a worshipped tree stay forbidden, since shavings cut from an idol are permitted. רב הונא בריה דרב יהושע answers that an idol does not lose its status through its natural growth. ריש לקיש then challenges רבי יוחנן from a משנה that lets a person knock down a nest from an אשרה. The גמרא defends רבי יוחנן in two ways: either the bird brought the branches from elsewhere, or the permission covers only the chicks, not the nest. Chicks are permitted and eggs are forbidden, and רב אשי adds that chicks still needing their mother count as eggs. A new משנה rules that found vessels with figures of the sun, moon or a dragon must be thrown into ים המלח. אביי explains that people worship many things, but they only make images of these three in order to worship them. The גמרא then asks whether רב ששת's list of forbidden images is about making them or finding them, and tests each clause, with the discussion continuing on the next amud.

Opening lines

וְהָא שִׁיפּוּיָין,

But look at shavings,

דְּעִיקַּר עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה קַיֶּימֶת,

where the main idol still exists,

וְקָתָנֵי: לְצׇרְכָּהּ — הִיא אֲסוּרָה,

and it teaches: if done for its sake, it is forbidden,

וְשִׁיפּוּיֶיהָ מוּתָּרִין!

but its shavings are permitted!

The steps (22)

  1. ChallengeWhy are fallen leaves forbidden if shavings are permitted?
  2. ResolutionAn idol does not lose its status through natural growth
  3. Challengeריש לקיש cites the case of a nest on top of a tree
  4. ChallengeThe assumption: the bird built the nest from the tree's own branches
  5. ResolutionThe bird brought branches from somewhere else
  6. ProofThe wording about the הקדש nest supports this reading
  7. ProofBranches from the tree itself would be holy
  8. RejectionThe support fails: the branches may be new growths
  9. ResolutionAnother reading for רבי יוחנן: knock off the chicks
  10. StatementChicks are permitted, eggs are forbidden, in both cases
  11. StatementChicks that still need their mother count as eggs
  12. StatementNew משנה: found vessels with figures of the sun, moon or dragon
  13. ChallengeDo people worship only these figures?
  14. ChallengeContradiction: slaughtering for many things counts as idol offerings
  15. ResolutionWorshipping what you find versus making images to worship
  16. Statementרב ששת's combined list of forbidden images
  17. QuestionWhat case is רב ששת's list talking about?
  18. RejectionIt cannot be about making images
  19. ResponseIt is about finding vessels, like our משנה
  20. ChallengeIf it's about finding, why is the human face forbidden?
  21. ResolutionRather, the list is about making images
  22. ChallengeIf it's about making, why is a dragon forbidden?