Bava Basra 164a

בבא בתרא קס״ד ע״א

Bava Batra 164a

Learn Bava Basra 164a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Forgery concerns with a שטר written on erased paper (מחק), the ברייתא on text and witnesses on erased versus clean paper, and the start of רבי's objection to רבי חנינא בן גמליאל

Overview

The גמרא defends רב's ruling that a שטר whose text and witness signatures are both on erased paper is כשר. A forger can't simply erase the text again, because paper erased twice looks different from paper erased once. To block a forger who pre-erases the witnesses' spot, אביי explains that רב requires the witnesses to see the paper erased before they sign. A ברייתא then says that text on clean paper with signatures on an erasure is כשר. The גמרא explains that this is only when the witnesses write a note saying so, placed between their two signatures. When asked why the reverse case (text on an erasure, signatures on clean paper) is פסול, it answers that a double erasure stands out only next to a single erasure, and here there is nothing on the page to compare it to. Every proposed test fails: erasures on other sheets differ, fresh erasures differ from old ones, and רבי ירמיה worries that courts will make mistakes with complicated procedures. Finally the גמרא turns to רבי חנינא בן גמליאל's view on a tied document, and רבי begins an objection that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (19)

1. ChallengeCould the forger just erase the text a second time?
2. ResolutionErased once looks different from erased twice
3. ChallengeWhat if the forger pre-erases the witnesses' spot too?
4. Resolutionאביי: witnesses must see the erasing
5. ChallengeA ברייתא: text on clean paper, witnesses on an erasure
6. ResolutionThe witnesses write a note explaining the erasure
7. QuestionWhere on the page does the note go?
8. ResponseThe note goes between the two signatures
9. ChallengeWhy not save the reverse case with a note too?
10. ChallengeBlocking the expected defense
11. ResolutionA double erasure is noticed only when there is something to compare
12. ChallengeWhy not test with an erasure on another sheet?
13. ResolutionDifferent sheets erase differently
14. ChallengeWhy not verify the signatures, then erase them and compare?
15. ResolutionA fresh erasure looks different from an older one
16. ChallengeWhy not wait until both erasures are old?
17. ResolutionWe worry that some courts will get it wrong
18. StatementQuoting רבי חנינא בן גמליאל on a tied document
19. Challengeרבי responds to רבי חנינא בן גמליאל