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Bava Kamma 114b

בבא קמא קי״ד ע״ב

Learn Bava Kamma 114b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Whether a thief acquires through the owner's יאוש, offhand remarks (מסיח לפי תומו) about bees and other cases, court conditions from יהושע, and recovering stolen items from a buyer.

Overview

The amud first settles a question about רבי's statement that 'a גנב is like a גזלן.' Did he mean a גזלן as the רבנן see him, so the thief does not acquire, or as רבי שמעון sees him, so the thief does acquire? Two proofs, from the משנה of the customs collectors and from a ברייתא about הקדש, are pushed aside by reading the 'thief' as an armed bandit. רב אשי then proves from רבי's teaching to his son about returning stolen animals 'for their father's honor' that רבי meant רבי שמעון's view. Next the גמרא explains the משנה about a swarm of bees: the finder may keep it only if the owners gave up hope, and a woman or child is believed when speaking offhandedly. רב אשי limits offhand remarks to עדות אשה, and each challenge to this is answered by showing that the case is only rabbinic. A ברייתא teaches court conditions from the time of יהושע that let a person save his friend's property and be paid back for his loss. Finally, a new משנה about finding your stolen items with a buyer leads to a careful definition of when a report of theft is trusted. The amud ends with רבא beginning to limit that rule to an owner who usually sells his vessels, and his ruling continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

וְקַיְמָא לַן כְּגַזְלָן לְרַבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן.

And we hold: like a robber, according to Rabbi Shimon.

גּוּפָא – רַבִּי אוֹמֵר, אוֹמֵר אֲנִי:

The matter itself: Rabbi says, I say:

גַּנָּב – כְּגַזְלָן.

A thief is like a robber.

אִיבַּעְיָא לְהוּ:

They asked:

The steps (48)

  1. ConclusionThe accepted ruling: like a robber according to רבי שמעון
  2. StatementBack to רבי's statement: a thief is like a robber
  3. QuestionWhich view of a robber did רבי mean?
  4. ProofA proof from the משנה of the customs collectors
  5. ChallengeWho wrote this משנה? Neither view fits
  6. ProofThe משנה fits רבי if he meant רבי שמעון's view
  7. ProofThe other reading leaves the משנה with no author
  8. RejectionThe משנה is about an armed bandit, following רבי שמעון
  9. ChallengeThen the bandit case is just the robber case again
  10. ResolutionTwo different kinds of robber
  11. ProofA new proof from the ברייתא about consecrated items
  12. ChallengeWhose view is the ברייתא? Each side has a problem
  13. ProofThe ברייתא fits only if רבי meant רבי שמעון's view
  14. RejectionThe 'thief' is really an armed bandit
  15. ChallengeThen the thief is the same as the robber
  16. ResolutionTwo kinds of robber
  17. Proofרב אשי brings רבי's teaching to his son
  18. ProofThe father's honor shows which robber רבי meant
  19. ConclusionThe proof is accepted
  20. QuestionWhy does the משנה say 'and so too' about bees?
  21. ResponseBees need real giving up of hope too
  22. StatementQuoting רבי יוחנן בן ברוקה on a woman and a child
  23. ChallengeCan a woman and a minor be witnesses?
  24. ResolutionThey spoke offhandedly while the owners chased the bees
  25. StatementOffhand remarks count only for a woman's testimony
  26. ChallengeBut the bees case accepts offhand remarks
  27. ResolutionBees are different because ownership is only rabbinic
  28. ChallengeA Torah-level case accepting an offhand remark
  29. Challengeרבי חנינא's ending: the man was raised to the priesthood
  30. ResolutionIt was only rabbinic תרומה
  31. ChallengeThe captive child who watched over his mother
  32. ResolutionThe captive woman case was only a rabbinic stringency
  33. StatementA court condition lets one cut a friend's branch to save his bees
  34. StatementMore court conditions: wine for honey, wood for flax, set up by יהושע
  35. StatementNew משנה: recognizing your stolen items in someone else's hands
  36. ChallengeWhy should a rumor of theft be trusted?
  37. ResolutionGuests came and the owner shouted at night
  38. RejectionThat just gives him a better excuse
  39. ResolutionA tunnel, guests leaving with bundles, and everyone talking
  40. ChallengeMaybe only vessels were taken, not books
  41. ResolutionPeople are also saying books were stolen
  42. ChallengeMaybe small books were stolen but he claims big ones
  43. ResolutionPeople name the exact books that were stolen
  44. ChallengeMaybe old books were stolen but he claims new ones
  45. ResolutionPeople point to the actual items and say whose they are
  46. Challengeרב also said a burglar keeps what he took
  47. ResolutionOnly a real burglar risked his life; guests did not
  48. Statementרבא limits the rule to an owner who usually sells his vessels