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Bava Metzia 24b

בבא מציעא כ״ד ע״ב

Learn Bava Metzia 24b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Bava Metzia 24b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Does רבי שמעון בן אלעזר's rule (that a lost object found where many people pass becomes the finder's because the owner gave up hope) apply only where most people are גוים, or also where most are Jews? Includes רב אסי's ruling on a found barrel of wine.

Overview

The גמרא keeps asking whether רבי שמעון בן אלעזר's rule applies only where most people are גוים, or also where most are Jews. His rule is that a find in a busy place belongs to the finder because the owner gave up hope. A proof from רב אסי's ruling on a found wine barrel is pushed away: רב אסי may agree with רבי שמעון בן אלעזר in one case and disagree in the other. רב אשי explains that רב אסי's 'permitted as a find' refers to the jug, since the wine itself is forbidden. Then comes a series of stories. In one, coins in נהר בירן must be announced. In another, שמואל says a purse found in the market belongs to the finder but should be returned לפנים משורת הדין, while רב נחמן lets the finder keep it. A third case is meat snatched by a kite. Each story is checked against רבי שמעון בן אלעזר's rule and explained as a special case. Last, a slaughtered goat found between טבריא and ציפורי leads to רבא's idea of two majorities: the population was mostly non-Jewish, but the slaughterers were mostly Jews. A new משנה then begins listing found items that must be announced.

Opening lines

וְאִיבָּעֵית אֵימָא:

And if you wish, say:

לְעוֹלָם רַבָּנַן,

actually, it follows the Rabbis.

מִי קָתָנֵי ״הֵן שֶׁלּוֹ״?

Does it teach "they are his"?

״אֵינוֹ חַיָּיב לְהַכְרִיז״ קָתָנֵי.

It teaches "he is not obligated to announce."

The steps (32)

  1. RejectionAnother way out: the earlier source can follow the Rabbis
  2. Proofרב אסי's ruling on a found barrel of wine
  3. ProofThe proof: רבי שמעון בן אלעזר speaks only of a gentile majority
  4. Rejectionרב אסי may agree in one case and disagree in the other
  5. QuestionWhat does 'permitted as a find' mean if the wine is forbidden?
  6. Responseרב אשי: it refers to the jug
  7. StatementCoins found in the Biran River
  8. ChallengeIsn't this like something swept away by the sea?
  9. ResolutionThe Biran River has obstacles
  10. ChallengeDoes this disprove רבי שמעון בן אלעזר?
  11. ResolutionJews built and maintain the river
  12. Statementשמואל's rulings on a purse found in the market
  13. ChallengeTwo answers that contradict
  14. ResolutionReturning it is beyond the letter of the law
  15. Proofשמואל's father returned donkeys
  16. Statementרב נחמן's rulings on the same purse
  17. ChallengeBut the owner is crying out
  18. ResolutionLike screaming over a sunken ship
  19. StatementMeat dropped by a kite
  20. ChallengeDoes this follow רבי שמעון בן אלעזר even among Jews?
  21. ResolutionA kite is like the tide of the sea
  22. ChallengeIsn't meat that left sight forbidden?
  23. ResolutionHe watched it the whole time
  24. Statementרבי חנינא finds a slaughtered goat on the road
  25. StatementTwo separate reasons for the permission
  26. ProofThe ברייתא where רבי חנניא permits found slaughtered animals
  27. Statementרבי splits the cases: garbage heap or house
  28. ChallengeIf the meat is kosher, the area must be mostly Jewish
  29. ResolutionMostly non-Jews, but mostly Jewish slaughterers
  30. Statementרבי אמי finds slaughtered young birds
  31. Statementרבי יצחק נפחא finds a skein of net thread
  32. StatementNew משנה: found items that must be announced