Gemara Clarity

Bava Metzia 27b

בבא מציעא כ״ז ע״ב

Learn Bava Metzia 27b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Bava Metzia 27b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Are סימנים (identifying marks) a Torah-level way to prove ownership (דאורייתא), or only a rabbinic one (דרבנן)? The גמרא gives the practical difference and then tests several proofs.

Overview

Just before this amud, the גמרא asked whether returning a lost item by its סימנים is דאורייתא or דרבנן. The amud opens with the practical difference: a lost גט can be returned by its marks only if סימנים are דאורייתא. The גמרא then brings three proofs that סימנים are דאורייתא: the שמלה teaching, the donkey's saddle, and the פסוק 'עד דרש אחיך אתו'. Each proof is pushed aside. Next, a משנה about identifying a dead man seems to show that סימנים are not דאורייתא. That proof is answered too, which leads to a discussion of which items people lend and which they never lend, such as saddles, pouches, purses and signet rings. The גמרא then tries to tie the question to a dispute between תנאים about a mole. Three different explanations show that the dispute does not have to depend on it. Finally, רבא explains why lost items are returned by סימנים even if they are only דרבנן. After רב ספרא's challenge, the reason given is that the owner himself agrees, and a case about found loan documents is shown to rest on simple logic instead.

Opening lines

לְאַהְדּוֹרֵי גֵּט אִשָּׁה בְּסִימָנִים.

For returning a woman's bill of divorce based on identifying marks.

אִי אָמְרַתְּ דְּאוֹרָיְיתָא – מַהְדְּרִינַן,

If you say they are from the Torah, we return it,

וְאִי אָמְרַתְּ דְּרַבָּנַן –

and if you say they are rabbinic,

כִּי עֲבוּד רַבָּנַן תַּקַּנְתָּא בְּמָמוֹנָא,

when the Rabbis made an enactment, it was in money matters,

The steps (25)

  1. ResponseThe practical difference: returning a lost גט by its marks
  2. ProofProof from the garment teaching
  3. RejectionOnly 'claimants' was really needed
  4. ProofProof from the donkey's saddle
  5. RejectionRead it as 'witnesses about the saddle'
  6. ProofProof from 'until your brother seeks it'
  7. ProofChecking the claimant must mean through identifying marks
  8. RejectionNo, the claimant is checked through witnesses
  9. ProofA משנה about identifying a dead man suggests marks are not Torah-level
  10. RejectionBody marks are too general, and clothes may have been lent
  11. ChallengeIf we worry about lending, how can a donkey be returned by its saddle?
  12. ResolutionPeople don't lend saddles because they hurt the donkey
  13. RejectionAnother answer: the clothing marks were only colors
  14. ChallengeA ברייתא challenges the lending worry: a גט found tied to a pouch
  15. ResolutionPeople don't lend pouches, purses, or signet rings
  16. ProofMaybe this is a dispute of תנאים about identifying by a mole
  17. RejectionMaybe they argue about whether people born together share a mole
  18. RejectionMaybe they argue about whether marks change after death
  19. RejectionMaybe they argue about whether a mole is a very clear mark
  20. ChallengeHow can lost items be returned by marks if marks are only Rabbinic?
  21. ResolutionThe finder is glad to return items by marks
  22. ChallengeThe finder cannot give away someone else's property
  23. ResolutionThe owner himself wants items returned by clear marks
  24. ChallengeThe case of found loan documents seems to go against the owner
  25. ResolutionThe loan documents ruling is based on simple logic