Bava Metzia 81b

בבא מציעא פ״א ע״ב

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Topic

Owners "with" the borrower, מה לי לשקר and witnesses, a plain 'put it down,' and a lender holding collateral

Overview

This amud opens by finishing two stories in which רב פפא and then רבא rule that someone must pay. Each time the רבנן object that the owner was "with" the person holding the item (בבעלים). Each time new facts show the ruling was right: the owner was drinking beer, and the sheet was taken without permission. Next, a renter takes a road the owner forbade, and the donkey dies. רבא would believe the renter's claim that there was no water there, using מה לי לשקר. אביי answers that this reasoning does not work when witnesses can check the facts. The גמרא then asks whether saying just 'put it down' makes someone a שומר חנם. It tries to answer from the משנה and from a dispute between תנאים, but neither source settles the question. Finally, the גמרא asks whether the משנה's rule, that a lender holding collateral is a שומר שכר, goes against רבי אליעזר. It answers by splitting the cases by when the collateral was taken, and a new challenge to that answer begins at the end of the amud.

Opening lines

The steps (24)

1. StatementThe cloak is stolen and רב פפא rules the guardians must pay
2. ChallengeThe רבנן object: the owner was with them
3. ResolutionThe truth comes out: the owner was drinking beer
4. StatementThe tall man, the short man, and the washed-away sheet
5. Statementרבא rules that the short man must pay
6. ChallengeThe רבנן object: it is borrowing with the owner
7. ResolutionThe truth comes out: he took the sheet without permission
8. StatementA renter takes the forbidden road and the donkey dies
9. StatementThe renter's claim: I went that way, but there was no water
10. Statementרבא believes the renter because he could have told a better lie
11. Rejectionאביי: this reasoning does not work when witnesses can check
12. Statement'Put it before me' versus 'put it before yourself'
13. QuestionWhat if he just says 'put it down'?
14. ProofA proof from the משנה that a plain 'put it down' means nothing
15. RejectionOn the contrary: רב הונא's wording points the other way
16. ConclusionNothing can be learned from here
17. ProofMaybe this question is a dispute between תנאים
18. RejectionThe Rabbis' courtyard ruling may not apply to a market
19. Rejectionרבי's courtyard ruling may not apply to a market either
20. StatementThe משנה: a lender holding collateral is a paid guardian
21. ChallengeDoes the משנה go against רבי אליעזר?
22. Statementרבי עקיבא: if the collateral is lost, the loan is lost
23. ResolutionDifferent timing of the collateral solves the contradiction
24. ChallengeA new challenge begins against the timing split