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Chullin 23b

חולין כ״ג ע״ב

Learn Chullin 23b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

In-between cases (a פלגס as a בריה, שיאור dough for a תודה vow), and the opposite rules of פרה אדומה and עגלה ערופה

Overview

The גמרא finishes a discussion about the פלגס, an animal past the age of a lamb but not yet a ram. בר פדא says one brings the larger offering of a ram and makes a condition. The גמרא asks whether that condition also covers the chance that the פלגס is a בריה of its own, and the question ends as תיקו. Next, רבי זירא asks a similar question about שיאור, dough that has started to rise but is not fully leavened. Someone vowed to bring תודה loaves of חמץ or of מצה and brought שיאור. After sorting out רבי מאיר's and רבי יהודה's definitions, the question narrows to one case: is רבי יהודה's שיאור a doubt, so it works either way, or a separate kind of thing that works for neither? A challenge from רב הונא forces the case to be narrowed twice, and the question again ends as תיקו. Then a new משנה teaches that פרה אדומה and עגלה ערופה follow opposite rules. A ברייתא explains that the פרה needs שחיטה and the עגלה needs עריפה. The amud ends with a קל וחומר challenge asking why the פרה should not also be valid with עריפה.

Opening lines

דְּאָמַר מַיְיתֵי וּמַתְנֵי.

As he says: he brings and stipulates.

מִי אָמְרִינַן: אַיִל וָכֶבֶשׂ מַתְנֵה,

Do we say: he stipulates about ram or lamb,

בִּבְרִיָּה לָא מַתְנֵה,

but about a separate creature he does not stipulate,

אוֹ דִלְמָא בִּבְרִיָּה נָמֵי מַתְנֵה,

or perhaps he also stipulates about a separate creature,

The steps (15)

  1. Statementבר פדא's method: bring and make a condition
  2. QuestionDoes the condition also cover the possibility that it is a separate creature?
  3. ConclusionThe question stays unresolved
  4. Questionרבי זירא asks about in-between dough for a thanks offering
  5. QuestionWhose definition of שיאור is meant?
  6. QuestionRuling out two more kinds of שיאור
  7. QuestionThe real question: is שיאור a doubt or a separate kind of thing?
  8. ChallengeChallenge from רב הונא: a doubt would not be enough either
  9. ResolutionThe question is about vowing only the loaves for someone else's offering
  10. ChallengeThe owner still does not know which loaf he is missing
  11. ResolutionThe question is only whether the vower kept his vow
  12. ConclusionThe question stays unresolved
  13. StatementNew משנה: פרה אדומה and עגלה ערופה are opposites
  14. StatementThe ברייתא explains: slaughter versus breaking the neck
  15. ChallengeWhy not let the red heifer be valid with breaking the neck?