Gemara Clarity

Gittin 13b

גיטין י״ג ע״ב

Learn Gittin 13b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Gittin 13b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Why רב זביד rejects רב פפא's reading of the משנה, and the scope and reason of רב's rule of מעמד שלשתן

Overview

Earlier the גמרא offered two ways to explain our משנה so that it does not clash with רב's rule of מעמד שלשתן. First it explains that רב פפא holds רב's rule works for a loan and a deposit alike. Then it asks why רב זביד did not follow רב פפא. רב זביד answers that the משנה cannot be about a שכיב מרע, because the משנה requires the man to say 'give', while a dying man's 'write' is enough. To support this, the גמרא quotes a משנה listing people in danger whose 'write' counts, ending with רבי שמעון שזורי, who adds the מסוכן. רב אשי rejects the proof, since our משנה may follow the רבנן, who leave the sick man off the list. Next the גמרא studies רב's rule itself. רבא first limits it to a deposit, then swears that רב meant it even for a loan, and שמואל in the name of לוי agrees. אמימר explains the rule as an obligation the borrower took on when the loan was made. רב אשי disproves this from people born after the loan, and he begins his own explanation, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

קָסָבַר רַב פָּפָּא,

Rav Pappa holds

כִּי אָמַר רַב –

that when Rav said [his rule],

לָא שְׁנָא בְּמִלְוֶה,

it makes no difference whether it is a loan

וְלָא שְׁנָא בְּפִקָּדוֹן.

and it makes no difference whether it is a deposit.

The steps (16)

  1. Responseרב פפא holds רב's rule covers loans and deposits alike
  2. QuestionWhy didn't רב זביד follow רב פפא?
  3. ResponseThe משנה cannot be about a שכיב מרע
  4. ProofProof from the גט case in the same משנה
  5. ProofReading the משנה closely: 'give' is required, but not for a שכיב מרע
  6. ProofSource: people in danger whose 'write' counts as 'give'
  7. Proofרבי שמעון שזורי adds a person in danger of dying
  8. Rejectionרב אשי: maybe our משנה follows the רבנן
  9. Statementרב's rule: transferring money by speech with all three present
  10. Statementרבא: the rule makes sense only for a deposit
  11. Rejectionרבא swears: רב meant it even for a loan
  12. ProofSupport from שמואל in the name of לוי: even a loan
  13. QuestionWhat is the reason behind רב's rule?
  14. Responseאמימר: the borrower obligated himself from the start
  15. Challengeרב אשי: what about people not yet born at the time of the loan?
  16. Responseרב אשי begins his own explanation