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Kesubos 35b

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Ketubot 35b

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Topic

When מלקות or מיתה cancels a payment, which תנא the קנס משנה follows, and a ברייתא about women who get no fine

Overview

The גמרא finishes defending the source that someone liable for מלקות does not also pay. It does this by describing a case where he hit a person and tore his silk in the same act. רב חייא then asks how the תנא דבי חזקיה knows the פסוק about striking speaks of a weekday and not שבת. The גמרא proves it from the פסוק itself: the striker was warned, yet he still pays for the animal. Next, רב פפא asks אביי which תנא our משנה follows according to רבה, who says a קנס is paid even by someone who gets מיתה. רבי מאיר, רבי נחוניא בן הקנה and רבי יצחק each run into a problem. The גמרא concludes that רבה must hold like רבי יוחנן, who says that without a warning the man pays. רב מתנא then asks who argues with רבי נחוניא according to ריש לקיש, and the answer is רבי מאיר or רבי יצחק. Finally, a ברייתא lists women who get no fine at all. The גמרא begins asking what 'עריות' means there, and that question continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

סוֹף סוֹף לָאו בַּר תַּשְׁלוּמִין הוּא?

In the end, isn't he someone not subject to payment?

לָא צְרִיכָא, דְּבַהֲדֵי דְּמַחְיֵיהּ,

It is only needed where, at the same time that he hit him,

קְרַע שִׁירָאִין דִּילֵיהּ.

he tore his silk garments.

אֲמַר לֵיהּ רַב חִיָּיא לְרָבָא:

Rav Chiyya said to Rava:

The steps (15)

  1. ChallengeBut someone who gets lashes for hitting doesn't pay anyway
  2. ResolutionHe hit him and tore his silk at the same moment
  3. ChallengeMaybe the verse about striking is about שבת
  4. ResolutionThe verse must be about someone who was warned
  5. ConclusionSo the verse must be about a weekday
  6. QuestionAccording to רבה, whose view does the משנה follow?
  7. Challengeרבי מאיר doesn't fit: the daughter case
  8. Challengeרבי נחוניא doesn't fit: the sister case
  9. Challengeרבי יצחק doesn't fit: the ממזרת case
  10. Challengeרבה's answer works only if he holds like רבי יוחנן
  11. Resolutionרבה must hold like רבי יוחנן
  12. QuestionWhich תנא argues with רבי נחוניא according to ריש לקיש
  13. ResponseEither רבי מאיר or רבי יצחק
  14. StatementA ברייתא lists girls who get no fine at all
  15. QuestionWhat do the ברייתא's terms mean