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Kiddushin 64b

קידושין ס״ד ע״ב

Learn Kiddushin 64b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

How strong 'מה לי לשקר' is, then a father who betrothed an unnamed daughter: which daughters are included, and the argument between רבי מאיר and רבי יוסי about 'elder' and 'younger'.

Overview

The amud opens by finishing an earlier discussion. A man is presumed to have brothers but not children, and he claims 'I have children.' We believe him through 'מה לי לשקר', because he could have freed his wife with a גט. רבי treats 'מה לי לשקר' like witnesses, which can uproot a חזקה, while רבי נתן treats it like a חזקה, which cannot fully uproot another one. Then a new משנה teaches that a father who betroths 'my daughter' without naming her does not include his בוגרות. If he has two groups of daughters from two wives and betrothed 'the elder' or 'the younger' but does not know which one he meant, רבי מאיר forbids every daughter the word could describe, while רבי יוסי forbids only the one at the very end of the line. The גמרא explains why the בוגרות rule is not obvious: a father acting as his adult daughter's שליח still means his minor daughter, because her betrothal is his own מצוה. It shows why both the elder and younger cases are needed, and it settles an apparent contradiction from a משנה about vows by switching the names there, backed by a ברייתא. אביי limits the argument to two groups of daughters, and רב אדא בר מתנה begins a challenge to him that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

דְּמוּחְזָק לַן בְּאַחֵי

where we have a presumption that he has brothers

וְלָא מוּחְזָק לַן בִּבְנֵי,

but we do not have a presumption that he has children,

דְּאָמְרִינַן: ״מָה לִי לְשַׁקֵּר״:

where we say: 'Why would I lie?'

מַאי קָאָמַר, לְמִיפְטְרַהּ מִיָּבָם?

Why is he saying this? To exempt her from the יבם?

The steps (23)

  1. ResolutionThe case where 'Why would I lie?' makes him believed
  2. ConclusionWhy רבי and רבי נתן disagree
  3. StatementBetrothing 'my daughter' leaves out the grown daughters
  4. Statement'I betrothed my elder daughter': רבי מאיר's view
  5. Statementרבי יוסי: only the very eldest is forbidden
  6. Statement'I betrothed my younger daughter': רבי מאיר's view
  7. Statementרבי יוסי: only the very youngest is forbidden
  8. ChallengeThe minors are included, so betrothal not open to marital relations works
  9. ResolutionThe case has only one adult and one minor
  10. ChallengeBut the משנה says 'adults' in the plural
  11. Resolution'Adults' means adult daughters in general
  12. ChallengeWhy would adult daughters be included at all?
  13. ResolutionThe adult daughter made her father her agent
  14. ChallengeWhat if the adult daughter gave him her betrothal money?
  15. ResolutionA person does not skip his own duty to do someone else's
  16. StatementWhy the משנה needs both the elder and younger cases
  17. QuestionIs the argument about putting oneself into doubt?
  18. ChallengeBut elsewhere they seem to hold the opposite
  19. ChallengeThe vows case that seems to reverse the views
  20. Resolutionרב: switch the names in the vows משנה
  21. ProofA ברייתא supports switching the names
  22. Statementאביי: the argument is only about two sets of daughters
  23. Challengeרב אדא בר מתנה begins a challenge to אביי