Gemara Clarity

Nedarim 5a

נדרים ה׳ ע״א

Learn Nedarim 5a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Nedarim 5a in Gemara Clarity

Topic

What does ״מוּדְּרַנִי הֵימָךְ״ forbid: one side, both sides, or no food at all? (Reworking the views of רבי יוסי ברבי חנינא and שמואל)

Overview

This amud asks what happens when someone says ״מוּדְּרַנִי הֵימָךְ״ ("I am avowed from you"). First the גמרא says that this plain phrase forbids both people, and it backs this up with רבי יוסי ברבי חנינא. A משנה about ״הריני עליך חרם״ seems to forbid only one side, and the גמרא answers twice that the speaker there spelled out that the other side stays permitted. But the end of that משנה implies that a plain vow forbids only one side. So the גמרא re-states רבי יוסי ברבי חנינא: ״מודר אני לך״ forbids both people, while ״מודרני הימך״ forbids only the speaker. This clashes with how שמואל's words on our משנה were explained, so the גמרא re-states שמואל as being about eating versus all benefit. That reading does not fit שמואל's wording ״עד שיאמר״. In the final version, the plain phrases do not forbid food at all, because each one naturally means a different kind of separation: no talking, no business, or not standing within four אמות. Only adding "that I eat" or "that I taste" makes it a food vow.

Opening lines

אֲבָל אָמַר ״מוּדְּרַנִי הֵימָךְ״ לְחוֹדֵיהּ —

But if he said "I am avowed from you" by itself,

שְׁנֵיהֶן אֲסוּרִין.

both of them are forbidden.

כִּי הָא דְּאָמַר רַבִּי יוֹסֵי בְּרַבִּי חֲנִינָא:

This is like what רבי יוסי ברבי חנינא said:

״מוּדְּרַנִי הֵימָךְ״ — שְׁנֵיהֶן אֲסוּרִין.

"I am avowed from you": both of them are forbidden.

The steps (13)

  1. StatementSaying only "I am avowed from you" forbids both people
  2. ProofSupport from רבי יוסי ברבי חנינא
  3. ChallengeChallenge from a משנה: "I am חרם to you" forbids only one side
  4. ResolutionThe משנה is a case where he said the other side stays permitted
  5. ChallengeSecond challenge: "You are חרם to me" forbids only the speaker
  6. ResolutionAgain, a case where he said the other side stays permitted
  7. ChallengeThe end of the משנה suggests a plain vow forbids only one side
  8. ResolutionRe-stating the view of רבי יוסי son of רבי חנינא
  9. ChallengeThe משנה's "from you" was explained as forbidding both
  10. Resolutionשמואל's rule was about eating versus all benefit
  11. ChallengeIf so, why didn't שמואל phrase it more simply?
  12. Resolutionשמואל's statement is given in a new final version
  13. ResponseWhy the plain phrases do not mean food