Niddah 30b
נדה ל׳ ע״ב
Learn Niddah 30b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.
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Topic
How long a boy and a girl take to form in the womb (רבי ישמעאל against the חכמים), and רבי שמלאי's אגדה about the baby's life in the womb.
Overview
The גמרא finishes asking why the משנה makes a woman with an unidentified miscarriage count like a mother of a boy and of a girl, when she already keeps the rules of נדה. It answers with cases of blood on day 34 and day 41, and on day 74 and day 81, where those counts make her wait longer. Next it turns to רבי ישמעאל, who holds that a boy is formed in 41 days and a girl only in 81. The חכמים reject his comparison from the days of impurity, and the גמרא shows that his real proof is the extra word תֵּלֵד said about a girl. Two versions of a story about קליאופטרא's experiment on her maidservants are told, and each side calls the other's proof one 'from fools.' The גמרא then explains why the משנה repeats the view of the חכמים: so we do not rule like רבי ישמעאל just because the פסוקים seem to support him. The amud ends with רבי שמלאי's אגדה about the baby in the womb: how it lies, how it eats, how it learns the whole תורה, how it forgets it at birth, and the oath it swears to keep its נשמה pure. A new statement by רבי אלעזר begins and continues on the next amud.
Opening lines
הָא קָתָנֵי נִדָּה!
But it teaches 'a menstruating woman'!
שֶׁאִם תִּרְאֶה יוֹם שְׁלוֹשִׁים וְאַרְבָּעָה,
That if she sees blood on the thirty-fourth day,
וְתַחְזוֹר וְתִרְאֶה יוֹם אַרְבָּעִים וְאֶחָד —
and she sees again on the forty-first day,
תְּהֵא מְקוּלְקֶלֶת עַד אַרְבָּעִים וּשְׁמוֹנָה.
she is 'spoiled' until the forty-eighth day.
The steps (39)
- ChallengeWhy mention the boy-birth rules if she already keeps נדה rules?
- ResolutionBlood on day 34 and again on day 41
- ResolutionThe matching case for a girl: day 74 and day 81
- StatementThe משנה quotes רבי ישמעאל on day 41
- Statementרבי ישמעאל's source: the תורה treats boy and girl differently
- Proofרבי ישמעאל's comparison: the impurity days match the formation days
- RejectionThe חכמים reject learning formation from impurity
- ChallengeThe חכמים bring the story of קליאופטרא
- Rejectionרבי ישמעאל dismisses the קליאופטרא proof
- ChallengeWhat is רבי ישמעאל's proof from the תורה?
- ResolutionThe extra word תֵּלֵד for a girl
- ResponseWhy the experiment is a proof from fools: the girl may have started earlier
- RejectionThe חכמים reply: she gave them a drug to clear out any earlier pregnancy
- Rejectionרבי ישמעאל: some bodies are not affected by the drug
- ProofSecond version: רבי ישמעאל brings the קליאופטרא story as his proof
- RejectionThe חכמים: we don't bring proof from fools
- ResponseWhy it is foolish: the girl's mother may have conceived 40 days late
- RejectionThe maidservants were under a guard
- RejectionA guard cannot be trusted with עריות
- ChallengeMaybe the girl was already formed at 41 days
- ResolutionThe signs of growth were the same
- ChallengeWhy does the משנה repeat the view of the חכמים?
- RejectionIt cannot be just to show the הלכה follows the majority
- ResolutionThe repeat is needed because רבי ישמעאל's view looks convincing
- StatementHow a baby lies folded in the womb
- StatementHow the baby eats, and what changes at birth
- StatementA light over the baby's head lets it see the whole world
- StatementThe womb is the happiest time of a person's life
- ProofProof that the פסוק means the months of pregnancy
- StatementThe baby is taught the whole תורה in the womb
- QuestionWhy bring a second verse?
- ResponseThe first verse might be only about a prophet
- StatementAt birth an angel makes the baby forget the תורה
- StatementThe baby must swear an oath before being born
- ProofExplaining the verse: bowing is death, swearing is birth
- QuestionWhat oath is the baby made to swear?
- ResponseThe words of the oath: be righteous and keep your soul pure
- StatementParable of the כהן who gives תרומה to an עם הארץ
- StatementOpening of a new statement by רבי אלעזר