Gemara Clarity

Niddah 4b

נדה ד׳ ע״ב

Learn Niddah 4b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Niddah 4b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

The loaf case in the תוספתא, and the חכמים' 24-hour rule for a woman who finds blood: its reason, its measure, and how it fits רבי דוסא's view

Overview

The amud opens by finishing the loaf case from the תוספתא. The loaf is טהור because we assume a person moved it, and we do not make the same assumption about a raven, since a raven does not act on purpose. The גמרא then defends the ruling against the rule that a ספק טומאה ברשות היחיד is טמא. It gives two answers: a loaf is a דבר שאין בו דעת לישאל, or the טומאה there is only דרבנן, which the word מדף supports. Next the גמרא returns to the משנה. A ברייתא explains that the חכמים rejected both שמאי and הלל. Their rule is that a woman who finds blood is impure backward for the shorter of 24 hours or the time since her last check. After רבה's reason ('she would feel it') is set aside, the real reason turns out to be a rabbinic enactment: women check every morning and evening, so a woman who skipped her checks loses an extra עונה. רב פפא challenges this, and the גמרא explains the fixed 24 hours in two ways: a uniform measure, or so that the sinner should not gain. Finally, the גמרא asks whether the משנה about a woman with a וסת follows only רבי דוסא, and it narrows the dispute with the רבנן in two different ways.

Opening lines

שֶׁאֲנִי אוֹמֵר:

For I say:

אָדָם טָהוֹר נִכְנַס לְשָׁם וּנְטָלָהּ.

a pure person entered there and took it.

הָכָא נָמֵי נֵימָא:

Here too, let us say:

עוֹרֵב אֲתָא וּשְׁדָא!

a raven came and threw it in!

The steps (31)

  1. ResolutionA pure person moved the loaf
  2. ChallengeWhy not say a raven threw it?
  3. ResolutionPeople act on purpose, ravens don't
  4. ChallengeIsn't a doubt in a private domain impure?
  5. ResolutionAn object that can't be asked stays pure
  6. ResolutionSecond answer: only rabbinic impurity
  7. ProofThe word מדף shows a light impurity
  8. StatementWhy the חכמים rejected both שמאי and הלל
  9. StatementThe חכמים' middle rule: the shorter time wins
  10. StatementExample: when 24 hours is the shorter limit
  11. StatementExample: when the last check is the shorter limit
  12. ChallengeWhy teach something so obvious?
  13. ResolutionIt was taught to match the first case
  14. Statementרבה's suggested reason: a woman can feel a flow
  15. Challengeאביי: then she should be impure only from now
  16. Resolutionרבה was only testing אביי
  17. QuestionSo what is the real reason?
  18. Responseשמואל: women were told to check morning and evening
  19. ResponseShe skipped her checks, so she loses an עונה
  20. QuestionWhat does losing an עונה mean?
  21. ResponseAn extra עונה: together 24 hours
  22. Challengeרב פפא: Twenty-four hours can cover three periods
  23. ResolutionThe חכמים made one equal measure for all
  24. ResolutionSecond answer: The sinner should not gain
  25. QuestionWhat is the difference between the two answers?
  26. ResponseThe difference: A woman who was prevented from checking
  27. QuestionDoes the משנה follow only רבי דוסא?
  28. ProofThe ברייתא: רבי אליעזר and רבי דוסא disagree
  29. ResolutionThe משנה can follow everyone: the רבנן agree when she sees at her usual time
  30. ChallengeA ברייתא about stains seems to follow only the רבנן
  31. ResolutionThe ברייתא can follow רבי דוסא, so the משנה follows רבי דוסא alone