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Niddah 50b

נדה נ׳ ע״ב

Learn Niddah 50b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

When intent to eat makes a kosher bird's carcass or produce impure: intent during life or while attached, the chicken of יבנה, and the bird in the winepress

Overview

The גמרא finishes רבי יוחנן's ruling that intent while produce is still attached to the ground does not count. רבא supports this from a משנה that a kosher bird's carcass needs intent, so intent while it was alive must not count either. רבי זירא pushes back: the משנה may be about a bird nobody saw alive. He explains the chicken of יבנה as a 'wild' chicken, which אביי says means a kosher chick born to a runaway hen. רב פפא says instead that it was a marsh hen, which he holds is kosher, while מרימר says the marsh hen is forbidden. Next comes a ברייתא about a young bird that fell into a winepress: if the owner planned it for a כותי it is impure, and if for a dog it is pure. רבי יוחנן בן נורי says it is impure even for a dog, using a קל וחומר, and the חכמים reject his argument. The גמרא places the case in a big city where the winepress made the bird disgusting, and רבא begins explaining the חכמים's reply, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

צְרִיכוֹת מַחְשָׁבָה לִכְשֶׁיִּתָּלְשׁוּ,

they require intent once they are detached,

קָסָבַר מַחְשֶׁבֶת חִבּוּר

he holds that intent while attached

לֹא שְׁמָהּ מַחְשָׁבָה.

is not called intent.

אָמַר רָבָא: אַף אֲנַן נָמֵי תְּנֵינָא,

Rava said: We too have learned this,

The steps (24)

  1. Statementרבי יוחנן: intent counts only after picking
  2. Proofרבא's support from the kosher bird carcass
  3. Rejectionרבי זירא: the bird fell from a height
  4. Challengeאביי challenges with the chicken in Yavne
  5. Resolutionרבי זירא: it was a wild chicken
  6. ChallengeThe listeners laugh: a wild chicken is not even kosher
  7. Resolutionאביי defends him: a chicken born to a runaway hen
  8. Resolutionרב פפא: it was a marsh hen
  9. Proofרב פפא is consistent: marsh hen kosher, marsh rooster not
  10. Statementמרימר: the marsh hen is forbidden
  11. StatementA young bird in a winepress: the plan decides
  12. Statementרבי יוחנן בן נורי: even for a dog it is impure
  13. Proofרבי יוחנן בן נורי's קל וחומר
  14. RejectionThe חכמים reject the קל וחומר
  15. ProofThe chicken of יבנה as a counter-proof
  16. RejectionThe חכמים: in יבנה there was intent
  17. QuestionWhat setting is the winepress case in?
  18. ChallengeNot big cities, where no intent is needed
  19. ChallengeVillages don't work either
  20. ResolutionA big city, but the winepress made the bird disgusting
  21. ProofThe קל וחומר of רבי יוחנן בן נורי quoted again
  22. RejectionThe חכמים's answer quoted again
  23. QuestionWhat does 'it does not assume its status with that' mean?
  24. Responseרבא begins to explain the חכמים's reply