Pesachim 17b

פסחים י״ז ע״ב

Learn Pesachim 17b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Pesachim 17b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Is טומאת משקין דאורייתא? The slaughterhouse liquids, רבי שמעון's ruling, and רבי יהודה's retraction

Overview

This amud opens with the end of a ברייתא. There רבי שמעון rules that slaughterhouse liquids in the מקדש are טמא in vessels but טהור on the ground. רב פפא says that even someone who holds טומאת משקין is דאורייתא can explain the purity of these liquids, because it is a הלכה למשה מסיני. Two challenges follow. רב הונא בריה דרב נתן points out that רבי אליעזר built a proof from this case, and you cannot build a proof from a הלכה למשה מסיני. רבינא asks why רבי שמעון would split vessels from ground if the purity came from a tradition. The גמרא admits 'קשיא'. רב פפא then limits רבי שמעון's 'pure on the ground' to water, and only to a רביעית of it. The גמרא next asks whether רבי יהודה's 'impure in all cases' means liquids make vessels impure by Torah law. A משנה with his comment about the inside and outside of vessels suggests he holds it is only דרבנן. רבינא tries to reconcile the two sources, but the גמרא concludes that רבי יהודה retracted. It then asks how far he retracted, and רב נחמן בר יצחק begins a proof from a cow that drank מי חטאת, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (19)

1. Statementרבי שמעון splits the slaughterhouse liquids: vessels versus ground
2. Statementרב פפא: the slaughterhouse liquids rule is a received tradition
3. Challengeרב הונא challenges with רבי אליעזר's proof from יוסי בן יועזר
4. ChallengeYou cannot learn general rules from a received halacha
5. Challengeרבינא begins a second challenge from רבי שמעון
6. ChallengeA vessel-versus-ground split does not fit a הלכה למשה מסיני
7. ConclusionThe challenge remains unanswered
8. Statement'Pure on the ground' applies only to water, not blood
9. StatementEven water must be at least a רביעית
10. QuestionDoes רבי יהודה hold that liquids make vessels impure by Torah law?
11. ChallengeA משנה about vessels with an inside and an outside
12. Statementרבי יהודה limits the משנה to impurity from liquids
13. ChallengeWhy would רבי יהודה distinguish, if liquid impurity is from the Torah?
14. Resolutionשמואל's answer: רבי יהודה changed his mind
15. Resolutionרבינא's answer: no retraction, two different kinds of liquids
16. ChallengeChallenge to רבינא: the משנה would have been worded differently
17. ConclusionBack to the first answer: רבי יהודה retracted
18. QuestionHow far did רבי יהודה retract?
19. Proofרב נחמן בר יצחק brings a proof about a cow that drank purification water