Succah 13b

סוכה י״ג ע״ב

Sukkah 13b

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Topic

Tied bundles and other doubtful materials as סכך, and when stalks count as ידות (handles) of food

Overview

This amud opens by finishing an earlier discussion: the גמרא emends a ברייתא so that something is unfit only if it was as small as its leftover from the start. Next comes the rule against using tied bundles as סכך. מרימר allows the reed bundles of סורא, which are tied only for counting. רבי אבא allows willow huts once the top ties are undone. רב פפא and רב הונא בריה דרב יהושע each defend this, the second by teaching that a tie not meant for carrying is not a real אגד. רבי אבא then quotes שמואל: the vegetables used for מרור count as empty air in a סוכה, because they crumble when they dry. Two versions of רב הונא follow about ידות (handles): grapes picked for wine, or grain cut for סכך. The גמרא asks whether this matches a dispute between תנאים in a ברייתא about branches with fruit on them. רב מנשיא answers that the ברייתא is about grain first cut for food. The גמרא then challenges whether a change of mind can cancel the first intention, and it begins quoting a משנה about vessels that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (21)

1. ResolutionEmending the ברייתא: Unfit Only When It Starts as Small as Its Leftover
2. Statementמרימר: The Reed Bundles of סורא May Be Used as Roofing
3. Statementרבי אבא: Willow-Branch Huts Are Valid Once the Top Ties Are Undone
4. ChallengeChallenge: They Are Still Tied at the Bottom
5. Resolutionרב פפא: The Bottom Is Untied Too
6. Resolutionרב הונא: A Tie Not Meant for Carrying Is Not a Tie
7. StatementBitter-herb vegetables carry impurity but act like empty air
8. QuestionAsking for the reason
9. ResponseThey crumble when dry, so they count as absent
10. StatementGrapes picked for the winepress have no handles
11. StatementGrain cut for סכך has no handles
12. StatementThe grain version surely agrees about grapes
13. ConclusionThe grape version may hold that grain does have handles
14. QuestionIs רב מנשיא's view an old dispute?
15. ProofThe ברייתא about branches with fruit on them
16. ProofReading the ברייתא as a dispute about handles
17. StatementFor רבי אבא, it is certainly a dispute
18. Rejectionרב מנשיא: everyone agrees, the case is different
19. ChallengeThen why do the רבנן say no handles?
20. ResolutionSuggested answer: changing his mind cancels the first plan
21. ChallengeCan intention alone cancel? A משנה about vessels