Gemara Clarity

Succah 17b

סוכה י״ז ע״ב

Sukkah 17b

Learn Succah 17b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Succah 17b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Combining סכך פסול and אויר, and the two versions of the dispute between רב and שמואל on how much סכך פסול disqualifies

Overview

The amud opens as רבה finishes telling how the students of רב asked whether a little סכך פסול and a little אויר add up to make a סוכה invalid. רבה says each one is a separate fixed measure (שיעור), four טפחים versus three. Because the measures are different, they do not combine. Under the students' view, where the problem is the gap (הפלגה) from the wall, they should combine. אביי objects that in a small סוכה the measures seem equal. רבה answers that a small סוכה fails only because too little valid roofing is left. The גמרא then challenges רבה's rule from fabrics of different sizes that combine for טומאה. It answers that the fabrics share a common size of a טפח, since each can serve as a patch on a donkey's saddle. Next comes the נהרדעא version of the dispute between רב and שמואל about סכך פסול in the middle versus along the side. The גמרא tests both versions against a משנה about a wide board and a ברייתא about sheets and boards combining. The amud ends by bringing a ברייתא about cedar boards, to be examined on the next amud.

Opening lines

מִשּׁוּם שִׁיעוּרָא וְלָאו שִׁיעוּרָא הוּא.

It is because of [whether it is] the measure or not the measure.

הַאי לָאו שִׁיעוּרָא הוּא,

This [case] is not the measure,

כֵּיוָן דְּלָא שָׁווּ שִׁיעוּרַיְיהוּ לַהֲדָדֵי —

since their measures are not equal to each other —

לָא מִצְטָרְפִי.

they do not combine.

The steps (15)

  1. Statementרבה: the rule depends on fixed measures, so different measures do not combine
  2. Statementרבה: under the students' gap-based view, the two should combine
  3. Challengeאביי: in a small סוכה the measures are equal
  4. Resolutionרבה: the small סוכה fails for lack of minimum size, not equal measures
  5. ChallengeDifferent materials with different sizes do combine for impurity
  6. ResolutionThe fabrics combine because they share a one-handbreadth size
  7. QuestionWhat is a tiny one-handbreadth piece good for?
  8. ResponseIt can serve as a patch on a donkey's saddle
  9. StatementThe נהרדעא version of the dispute
  10. ChallengeA משנה about a wide board challenges שמואל
  11. ResolutionThe board was placed along the side
  12. ChallengeA ברייתא about sheets and boards combining
  13. ChallengeThe ברייתא fits one version of רב but not the other
  14. ResolutionThe boards are four טפחים wide and combine to four אמות on the side
  15. ChallengeA new ברייתא about roofing with cedar boards