Gemara Clarity

Succah 2b

סוכה ב׳ ע״ב

Sukkah 2b

Learn Succah 2b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Succah 2b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

The sources for the twenty-אמה limit of a סוכה, רב's rulings that narrow the מחלוקת, and the story of הילני המלכה's tall סוכה

Overview

Earlier on the דף, רבה, רבי זירא and רבא each gave a different source and reason for why a סוכה taller than twenty אמות is פסול. The גמרא first explains why each one rejects the others' sources: every source has a weak point. Next it brings three reports of a ruling by רב that narrow the מחלוקת between רבי יהודה and the חכמים. רבי יאשיה's report (walls that reach the סכך) fits רבה's reason. רב הונא's report (a סוכה bigger than four by four אמות) fits רבי זירא's reason. רב חנן בר רבה's report (anything bigger than head, most of body and table) fits none of them. The גמרא shows that רב הונא and רב חנן בר רבה agree on the minimum size of a סוכה and differ only on how far the מחלוקת reaches. Then a ברייתא tells of הילני המלכה's tall סוכה, and the גמרא explains why רבי יהודה needed both of his answers to the חכמים. Finally the גמרא starts testing that story against the reports of רב, and the test continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

כּוּלְּהוּ כְּרַבָּה לָא אָמְרִי,

All of them do not say like Rabba,

הָהוּא יְדִיעָה לְדוֹרוֹת הִיא.

that is knowledge for the generations.

כְּרַבִּי זֵירָא נָמֵי לָא אָמְרִי,

They also do not say like Rabbi Zeira,

הָהוּא לִימוֹת הַמָּשִׁיחַ הוּא דִּכְתִיב.

that verse is written about the days of Mashiach.

The steps (22)

  1. RejectionWhy the others reject רבה's source
  2. RejectionWhy the others reject רבי זירא's source
  3. Resolutionרבי זירא defends his source
  4. RejectionWhy the others reject רבא's source
  5. QuestionWhose view fits רבי יאשיה's report of רב about walls reaching the roof?
  6. ResponseIt fits רבה: when the walls reach the roof, the eye notices it
  7. QuestionWhose view fits רב הונא's report of רב about a large סוכה?
  8. ResponseIt fits רבי זירא: a wide סוכה gets shade from its roof
  9. QuestionA third version of רב's rule: the smallest possible סוכה
  10. ResponseIt fits none of the reasons
  11. Statementרבי יאשיה's version clearly differs from the other two
  12. QuestionDo רב הונא and רב חנן בר רבה argue about the minimum size of a סוכה?
  13. RejectionNo, both agree on the minimum size; they argue about something else
  14. RejectionThe other report: the debate covers sizes up to four by four אמות
  15. ChallengeAn objection: a ברייתא where רבי יהודה allows a very tall סוכה
  16. Proofרבי יהודה's proof from הילני המלכה's tall סוכה
  17. RejectionThe חכמים reject the proof: she was a woman
  18. Resolutionרבי יהודה answers: her seven sons, and she followed the חכמים
  19. QuestionWhy did רבי יהודה need his second argument?
  20. ResponseAt least one of seven sons was old enough
  21. ResponseShe kept even rabbinic rules
  22. ChallengeThe ברייתא fits the view about walls not reaching the roof