Taanis 4b

תענית ד׳ ע״ב

Taanit 4b

Learn Taanis 4b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

When to mention rain (הזכרה) and when to ask for rain (שאלה) in תפילה: settling רבי יהודה's view, the practical הלכה, and the schedule for two days of יום טוב.

Overview

The amud opens by finishing a question: does the משנה follow only רבי יהושע? רבא answers that it can also fit רבי אליעזר, because asking for rain (שאלה) and mentioning rain (הזכרה) are two separate things. The גמרא then sets רבי יהודה's ruling in the משנה against a ברייתא where he says we ask for rain until פסח has passed. רב חסדא tries to answer with the asking-versus-mentioning split, but עולא rejects it. עולא instead says two תנאים reported רבי יהודה's view differently. רב יוסף and then רבה each try to reread 'until פסח passes' so the two sources agree, but both readings are rejected, and the גמרא concludes twice that עולא is right. רבי יוחנן rules like רבי יהודה, and after several attempts the גמרא reconciles this with רבי אלעזר's ruling like רבן גמליאל. One date is for when the בית המקדש stands and the other for when it does not. Finally, רב and שמואל disagree about how people who keep two days of יום טוב should start mentioning rain.

Opening lines

The steps (30)

1. ChallengeDoes the משנה follow only רבי יהושע?
2. Resolutionרבא separates asking for rain from mentioning rain
3. StatementQuoting רבי יהודה's ruling about the prayer leader
4. ChallengeA ברייתא says רבי יהודה keeps asking for rain until after פסח
5. Resolutionרב חסדא: asking continues, mentioning stops
6. Challengeעולא rejects רב חסדא's answer with a logical argument
7. Resolutionעולא: two traditions of רבי יהודה's view
8. Resolutionרב יוסף reinterprets 'until Pesach passes'
9. Challengeאביי: there is no asking for rain on יום טוב
10. ResolutionThe translator is the one who asks
11. ChallengeNo one asks for what the community does not need
12. ConclusionBack to עולא's answer
13. ResolutionUntil the time of slaughtering the קרבן פסח
14. ChallengeMentioning at the end has no purpose
15. ConclusionAgain, עולא's answer stands
16. StatementThe הלכה follows רבי יהודה
17. Challengeרבי זירא doubts the report about רבי יוחנן
18. ResolutionA student does not have to follow his teacher
19. ResolutionOne ruling is about asking, the other about mentioning
20. Challengeרבי יוחנן says we mention whenever we ask
21. ResolutionThat statement was about stopping
22. Challengeרבי יוחנן links them at the start too
23. ResolutionOne ruling for us in בבל, one for them in ארץ ישראל
24. Challengeארץ ישראל has its own reason to wait
25. Resolutionרבי יוחנן spoke about a time without the בית המקדש
26. ConclusionBoth rulings are for ארץ ישראל, split by the בית המקדש
27. QuestionWhat do people with two days of יום טוב do?
28. Responseרב's schedule: start, stop, start again
29. Challengeשמואל objects: you cannot make it holy and then ordinary
30. Responseשמואל's schedule: keep going through מנחה