Bava Kamma 18b

בבא קמא י״ח ע״ב

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Topic

רבא's question of whether an animal can become a מועד for צרורות, the link to the dispute of רבי טרפון and the חכמים, and the attempts to prove an answer.

Overview

The גמרא first rejects an earlier reading of רבי אלעזר and suggests instead that his side and the first תנא argue over whether there is העדאה for צרורות. It then asks why רבא raised this as an open question. The answer is that רבא asks only according to the חכמים who disagree with סומכוס, while both sides of this ברייתא hold like סומכוס. Their real argument is the dispute between רבי טרפון and the חכמים about a תם doing damage in the victim's property. The גמרא shows that רבי טרפון also limits payment to the animal's body, because of דיו, which he accepts whenever it does not cancel the קל וחומר. Next the גמרא returns to רבא's question: is צרורות like קרן, or a sub-type of רגל? Proofs from a hopping chicken and from excrement dropped on dough are each pushed back into the סומכוס and רבנן dispute about a single act. Along the way we learn that excrement counts as צרורות. A new proof begins from a rooster's crow and a horse's neigh that break vessels, and it continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (21)

1. RejectionDid you ever hear רבי אלעזר say that?
2. Resolutionרבי אלעזר speaks of an animal that was warned
3. ChallengeThen רבא's question would already be answered
4. Resolutionרבא's question follows the חכמים who disagree with סומכוס
5. ResolutionWhy the חכמים say half damage, and what the real argument is
6. ChallengeDoes רבי טרפון also say the payment comes only from the animal?
7. ResolutionYes. רבי טרפון learns from קרן, and the rule of דיו limits payment to the animal
8. ChallengeDoesn't רבי טרפון reject דיו?
9. Resolutionרבי טרפון rejects דיו only when it would cancel the קל וחומר
10. QuestionBack to רבא's question: can an animal become a מועד for pebbles?
11. ProofProof attempt from a chicken that hops and kicks up pebbles
12. ProofReading the chicken ברייתא as a dispute about warnings for pebbles
13. RejectionNo, the chicken did it once, and this is the סומכוס dispute
14. ProofA new proof from an animal that dropped excrement onto dough
15. RejectionNo, the dough case is also one time and the סומכוס dispute
16. ChallengeBut dropping excrement onto dough is unusual behavior
17. ResolutionThe animal was squeezed in and had no choice
18. ChallengeThen why not simply say 'the הלכה follows סומכוס'?
19. ResolutionThe new case teaches that excrement counts as pebbles
20. ProofA rooster's crow and a horse's neigh that break vessels
21. ProofSuggesting both sources speak of three times and argue over העדאה