Bava Kamma 84b

בבא קמא פ״ד ע״ב

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Topic

Which damages the judges of בבל may collect as agents of the judges of ארץ ישראל, and which תנא holds that צער without נזק is paid.

Overview

The judges of בבל cannot collect for injuries to a person, because the תורה requires 'אלהים', judges with סמיכה, and בבל has none. So how do they rule on damage to an ox? They act as agents of the judges of ארץ ישראל, as with admissions and loans. The גמרא tests the limits of that agency through several answers: clear value, ממונא versus קנס, and how common the case is. It settles on one rule: agency covers only cases that are common and involve a real loss of money (חסרון כיס). So אדם באדם, which is uncommon, and בושת, which has no money loss, are not collected. After a challenge from רבא's statements, the גמרא explains that the ox damage collected in בבל is שן ורגל, which are מועד from the start. It then returns to the משנה on צער and asks which תנא holds that pain without damage is paid. רבא and רב פפא read the מחלוקת of רבי and בן עזאי in opposite ways. A third explanation begins at the end of the amud and continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (32)

1. ResponseOrdained judges are required, and בבל has none
2. QuestionWhy ox damage can still be judged in בבל: agency
3. ChallengeThen agency should cover human injuries too
4. ResolutionAgency only works for matters that are clear
5. ChallengeOx damage isn't clear either; just check the market
6. ChallengeFixed thief payments should be collected too
7. ResolutionAgency covers repayment of loss, not penalties
8. ChallengeThen injuries to a person should be collected
9. ResolutionAgency covers only common cases
10. ChallengeHumiliation and degradation are common
11. ResolutionYes, רב פפא collected for humiliation
12. Rejectionרב נחמן rejects collecting it in בבל
13. ResolutionTwo conditions: common and involving monetary loss
14. ChallengeIs ox-damaging-ox really collected in בבל?
15. QuestionProving רבא meant an ox that damaged an ox
16. Resolutionרבא meant a תם, the ruling means a מועד
17. ChallengeThere is no מועד in בבל
18. ResolutionMade מועד in ארץ ישראל, then brought to בבל
19. ChallengeSuch a case is not common
20. ResolutionRabbis from ארץ ישראל made it מועד in בבל
21. ChallengeIn the end, it is still uncommon
22. Resolutionרבא meant damage by eating and trampling
23. QuestionWho holds that pain without damage is paid?
24. Responseרבא says it is בן עזאי
25. ProofThe ברייתא: burn or bruise stated first
26. QuestionWhat are they really arguing about?
27. Responseרבי: a burn is paid only with a bruise
28. Responseבן עזאי: even a burn with no bruise is paid
29. Challengeרב פפא argues the opposite reading of רבי
30. Challengeרב פפא's flipped reading of בן עזאי
31. Resolution'Said first' refers to the final conclusion
32. ResponseAnother explanation: everyone agrees כויה covers both kinds of burns