Bava Kamma 85a

בבא קמא פ״ה ע״א

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Topic

Measuring צער, the rules of ריפוי and a reopened wound, and paying the other payments along with נזק

Overview

This amud finishes the מחלוקת between רבי and בן עזאי about whether a כלל ופרט still works when other words separate the two terms. It explains why רבי still needs the word חבורה. The גמרא then asks how to measure צער when there is also נזק. After several attempts, it settles on what a person would pay to have a hand that the government already condemned removed by a painless drug instead of a sword. Next comes ריפוי. A ברייתא gives three views on a wound that reopens, and רבה explains the dispute through the rules of bandaging and the doubled phrase ורפא ירפא, which also teaches that a doctor may heal. The גמרא then lists practical rules about which kind of medical care each side may refuse. Last, a ברייתא says all the payments are added on top of נזק, and רב זביד brings the source פצע תחת פצע. A challenge to that source begins at the end of the amud and continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (47)

1. ResponseThe core of the disagreement: a general and specific term that are far apart
2. ChallengeWhy does רבי need the word חבורה?
3. Resolutionחבורה teaches extra payment
4. StatementQuoting the משנה on how pain is measured
5. QuestionHow do we measure pain when there is also damage?
6. Responseאבוה דשמואל: what would someone take to have his hand cut off?
7. ChallengeCutting off a hand involves all five payments, not just pain
8. ChallengeNo sane person would sell his hand
9. ResolutionA hand that is already severed
10. ChallengeEven a useless hand brings embarrassment
11. ResolutionA hand the government already ordered cut off: drug versus sword
12. ChallengeNobody would take money to suffer
13. ResolutionFlip it: what would he pay to get the drug instead of the sword
14. ChallengeBut the משנה says 'take', not 'give'
15. ResolutionHe takes from the injurer what he himself would have given
16. StatementQuoting the משנה on medical costs
17. StatementA reopened wound: is the injurer still responsible?
18. Statementרבי יהודה: pay for healing but not for lost work
19. StatementThe חכמים: healing and lost work always go together
20. QuestionWhat is the real disagreement?
21. ResponseThe study hall's answer: may a wound be bandaged?
22. Challengeרבה's challenge: then healing should not be paid either
23. ResolutionEveryone allows a bandage, but not an excessive one
24. ResolutionWhy רבי יהודה makes the injurer pay for healing but not lost work
25. ResolutionWhy the רבנן make him pay for lost work too
26. ResolutionWhy רבי יהודה does not accept the link
27. ResolutionHow the רבנן use the word ״רק״
28. ChallengeWhat do the later רבנן do with the doubled healing word?
29. ResolutionA doctor is given permission to heal
30. StatementGrowths from the wound reopen it, and the injurer pays again
31. StatementGrowths from another cause are not covered
32. Statementרבי יוסי בר יהודה exempts the injurer even for growths from the wound
33. StatementFirst version: רבי יוסי בר יהודה exempts the injurer completely
34. StatementSecond version: exempt from lost work but still pays medical costs
35. ChallengeWhy would a פסוק be needed to exempt growths not caused by the wound?
36. ResolutionIt means the victim ignored his doctor and ate sweets
37. QuestionWhat is גרגותני?
38. Responseאביי explains: rotting flesh, and how to treat it
39. StatementThe victim can refuse to be treated by the injurer himself
40. StatementThe victim can refuse a free doctor
41. StatementThe victim may refuse a doctor from far away
42. StatementThe injurer may refuse to hand the victim cash for self-treatment
43. StatementThe injurer may refuse a fixed lump sum
44. StatementAll the extra payments are owed even along with damage
45. QuestionAsking for the source
46. ResponseThe source is 'פצע תחת פצע'
47. ChallengeChallenge: the verse is needed for something else