Chullin 58a

חולין נ״ח ע״א

Learn Chullin 58a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Chullin 58a in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Eggs and offspring of a טרפה: two versions of אמימר's ruling (זה וזה גורם, or whether a טרפה can reproduce), and how long a doubtful טרפה stays forbidden

Overview

אמימר rules that eggs already inside a hen when she became a טרפה are forbidden. Eggs formed later come from a forbidden hen and a kosher rooster, so they are permitted under זה וזה גורם מותר. The גמרא defends this ruling from a משנה that forbids a טרפה's egg, and from the dispute between רבי אליעזר and רבי יהושע about bringing a טרפה's offspring on the מזבח. In this version they argue about זה וזה גורם. They argue about the מזבח because showing the strength of a lenient view is preferred. This is רב אחא's version, which follows רב אחא בר יעקב that a טרפה can produce offspring. רבינא holds that a טרפה cannot lay eggs or become pregnant. So he teaches אמימר's ruling differently: the first eggs of a doubtful טרפה are permitted only if the bird lays again. In his version the משנה is read as 'finished,' and the offspring dispute is about whether a fetus is part of its mother. The גמרא then rules that a doubtful טרפה is cleared once a male lives twelve months or a female gives birth. It also brings רב הונא's rule that a boneless creature cannot live twelve months, which רב פפא starts to apply to wormy melons, a point that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (29)

1. StatementFirst clutch forbidden, later eggs permitted
2. ChallengeChallenge from the egg of a טרפה
3. ResolutionThe משנה means an egg made without a rooster
4. ChallengeWhy not say the משנה means the first clutch?
5. ResolutionThe word 'grew' rules out the first clutch
6. StatementThe dispute about offspring of a טרפה
7. QuestionWhat case are they arguing about?
8. ResponseThey argue about זה וזה גורם
9. ChallengeWhy argue about the מזבח and not about eating?
10. ResolutionThe argument is about the altar to show how strong רבי יהושע's leniency is
11. ChallengeWhy not argue about an ordinary person to show רבי אליעזר's strictness?
12. ResolutionShowing the strength of a leniency is preferred
13. ConclusionThe forbidden טרפה egg is one laid without a male
14. Statementרב אחא follows רב אחא בר יעקב and teaches אמימר's statement as said earlier
15. Statementרבינא's version of אמימר's ruling on eggs
16. Challengeרב אשי objects from the משנה about a טרפה's egg
17. ResolutionThe משנה means the first clutch
18. ChallengeThen the משנה should say 'finished'
19. ResolutionChange the wording to 'finished'
20. ChallengeWhat about the dispute over a טרפה's offspring?
21. ResolutionPregnant first, טרפה later
22. ChallengeWhy argue about the altar and not ordinary eating?
23. ResolutionTo show how far רבי יהושע goes
24. ChallengeWhy not show how far רבי אליעזר goes?
25. ResolutionShowing leniency is preferred
26. ConclusionWhy even רבי יהושע forbids the egg of a טרפה
27. ConclusionThe practical rule for an animal that may be a טרפה
28. StatementA boneless creature cannot live twelve months
29. Proofרב פפא begins to learn from רב הונא about שמואל's ruling on worms