Chullin 85b

חולין פ״ה ע״ב

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Topic

How far רבי מאיר and רבי שמעון each take their positions on שחיטה שאינה ראויה (a slaughter that cannot make the animal permitted, like slaughtering a טרפה), and whether רבי מאיר's view could let a living fetus found inside a slaughtered טרפה skip its own שחיטה.

Overview

The amud opens with a statement that limits both sides of an argument about שחיטה שאינה ראויה, a slaughter that cannot make the animal permitted, like slaughtering a טרפה. רבי מאיר says it still counts as שחיטה, but he agrees it does not permit eating. רבי שמעון says it does not count, but he agrees it removes the טומאה of נבלה. For each half the גמרא asks why it is needed, and it finds a case where the point is not obvious. For רבי מאיר's half, the case is a living fetus found inside a slaughtered טרפה, and the statement turns out to be needed for רבי, who mixes רבי מאיר's view with the רבנן's view. For רבי שמעון's half, the case is a non-sacred טרפה slaughtered in the עזרה, where he permits benefit. רב פפא and אביי then prove from a משנה that רבי שמעון treats the ban on חולין בעזרה as Torah law, since we do not make a גזירה לגזירה. The amud ends with a story: רבי told רבי חייא to use a bird's blood to drive moths from his flax. The גמרא asks how this fits the rule of covering the blood, and it begins to examine רבי's own view of bird slaughter, a discussion that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (20)

1. StatementBoth רבי מאיר and רבי שמעון have limits to their positions
2. ChallengeWhy does רבי מאיר's concession need to be said?
3. ResolutionThe case is a living fetus found inside a slaughtered טרפה
4. ChallengeBut רבי מאיר requires שחיטה even for a בן פקועה
5. ResolutionThe statement is needed for רבי, who agrees partly with רבי מאיר and partly with the רבנן
6. ResolutionWhy we might have thought the fetus needs no slaughter
7. ChallengeIsn't רבי שמעון's agreement obvious?
8. ProofA פסוק already teaches that a slaughtered טרפה is not נבלה
9. ResolutionThe statement is needed for a טרפה slaughtered as חולין in the עזרה
10. ProofThe ברייתא: רבי שמעון permits benefit from a טרפה slaughtered in the עזרה
11. ResolutionWhy the statement is needed even for רבי שמעון
12. QuestionIs the ban on non-sacred animals in the עזרה a Torah law for רבי שמעון?
13. Responseאביי says yes and quotes a משנה
14. ProofThe חיה ban proves the בהמה ban is from the Torah
15. StatementMoths in רבי חייא's flax
16. ChallengeHow could רבי חייא use the blood?
17. ResolutionTwo reports of what רבי really said
18. QuestionWhy didn't רבי just say 'stab it'?
19. ResolutionA suggested reason: birds need no Torah slaughter
20. Rejectionרבי himself says משה was taught bird slaughter