Gemara Clarity

Chullin 9a

חולין ט׳ ע״א

Learn Chullin 9a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Skills of a תלמיד חכם; the trained שוחט and checking the סימנים; רב הונא's presumption of permission after שחיטה

Overview

The amud opens by finishing a point about forbidden fat: the membrane on top does not protect the meat, because the שוחט's hand rubs it until it falls apart. רב teaches that a תלמיד חכם must learn writing, שחיטה and מילה, and another version adds the תפילין knot, ברכת חתנים and ציצית. שמואל rules that we may not eat from a טבח who does not know the five הלכות שחיטה, even if he slaughtered well in front of us a few times, because he may make a mistake without realizing it. שמואל also says the טבח must check the סימנים after slaughtering. רב יוסף's proof for this from רבי שמעון is turned aside. If the טבח did not check, one view says the animal is a טרפה and the ברייתא says it is a נבלה. The גמרא explains that both views build on רב הונא's rule: a living animal is presumed forbidden until we know it was slaughtered properly, and after that it is presumed permitted even if a flaw shows up. רב הונא rules that when a wolf returns the innards with holes, we do not worry that it bit right where an earlier hole was. רבי אבא then starts to challenge him from a case of a bird pecking a fig, and that challenge continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

מֵעִילַּאי נָמֵי קְרָמָא אִיכָּא?

From above, too, there is a membrane?

אַיְּידֵי דִּמְמַשְׁמְשָׁא יְדָא דְּטַבָּחָא מִפַּתַּת.

Since the hand of the slaughterer handles it, it crumbles.

וְאָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב:

And Rav Yehuda said that Rav said:

תַּלְמִיד חָכָם צָרִיךְ שֶׁיִּלְמוֹד שְׁלֹשָׁה דְּבָרִים:

A Torah scholar needs to learn three things:

The steps (29)

  1. ChallengeIsn't there also a membrane on top?
  2. ResolutionThe slaughterer's hand breaks up the upper membrane
  3. StatementThree skills a Torah scholar must learn
  4. StatementThree more skills in another version of רב
  5. ResolutionWhy the first version leaves these out
  6. StatementA slaughterer who doesn't know the laws
  7. ChallengeWhy say this? We already learned all these laws
  8. ResolutionEven a good track record is not enough
  9. StatementThe slaughterer must check the סימנים after slaughtering
  10. Proofרב יוסף brings support from רבי שמעון's pause rule
  11. Rejectionאביי: the checking means checking by a scholar
  12. ChallengeObjection: that measure would keep changing
  13. ResolutionThe time it takes a scholarly slaughterer to check
  14. QuestionWhat if he did not check?
  15. ResponseFirst view: it is a טרפה
  16. StatementA ברייתא: it is a נבלה
  17. QuestionWhat is the root of their disagreement?
  18. ResponseThey argue about רב הונא's rule of presumed status
  19. ResponseBoth sides use the presumption of prohibition differently
  20. Statementרב הונא's rule examined on its own
  21. ChallengeWhy not just say it became permitted?
  22. ResolutionThe presumption holds even when a flaw shows up
  23. Questionרבי אבא asks about a wolf and the innards
  24. ChallengeIf the innards are gone, there is nothing to ask
  25. ResolutionRewording: the wolf punctured the innards
  26. ChallengeWe saw the wolf make the holes
  27. ResolutionThe real question: the wolf returned them with holes
  28. Responseרב הונא: we do not worry about a hole on top of a hole
  29. Challengeרבי אבא begins an objection: the bird and the mouse