Kesubos 17b

כתובות י״ז ע״ב

Ketubot 17b

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Topic

Proof that a bride married as a בתולה, and why the משנה about רבי יהושע uses the father's field (חזקה and protest)

Overview

This amud first finishes an earlier discussion: for someone who taught Torah to others, there is no limit to the honor at his funeral. The גמרא then returns to the משנה about a woman who says she married as a בתולה. It gives two explanations of the הינומא. It then explains that roasted grain was proof in יהודה, while in בבל the sign was smearing oil on the heads of the Sages. A widow's wedding had no roasted grain. Next, the גמרא asks why the משנה about רבי יהושע speaks of a field that belonged to the other person's father and not to the other person himself. It answers that only the father's field allows a real middle case: two years of use in the father's lifetime and one in the minor son's, which is no חזקה according to רב הונא. Along the way, the גמרא proves from the משנה of the three lands that a protest made away from the holder still counts, as רבי אבא בר ממל explains it. The amud ends with a question on his answer, which is answered on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (24)

1. ConclusionNo limit on honor at the funeral of one who taught Torah
2. QuestionWhat is a הינומא?
3. ResponseA canopy of myrtle
4. ResponseA veil the bride dozes under
5. QuestionRoasted grain is proof in יהודה, but what about בבל?
6. ResponseIn Babylonia: oil smeared on the Sages' heads
7. Questionרב פפא asks: is this shampoo oil?
8. Responseאביי: didn't your own mother do this at your wedding?
9. ProofA story showing the oil custom at a wedding
10. QuestionWhat about a widow's wedding?
11. ResponseA widow has no roasted grain
12. ChallengeWhy not use the simpler case of 'your own field'?
13. ResolutionThe משנה chose the father's field because of its last clause
14. ResolutionWhy the witnesses clause can't work for 'your own field'
15. ChallengeThe same problem applies to the father's field
16. ResolutionThe father's field allows a split case: two years with the father, one with the son
17. ChallengeDid רב הונא just repeat the משנה?
18. ResolutionTwo answers: רב הונא states what the משנה implies, or he adds 'even if he grew up'
19. ChallengeWhy not build a similar split case with the owner himself, who ran away?
20. ResolutionThe runaway case fails either way: fleeing for his life or fleeing over money
21. ProofThe source: the 'three lands' for חזקה
22. ChallengeEither view seems to clash with the משנה
23. Resolutionרבי אבא בר ממל: the משנה speaks of a time of danger
24. ChallengeWhy mention יהודה and גליל?