Kesubos 91a

כתובות צ״א ע״א

Ketubot 91a

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Topic

The extra דינר needed for כתובת בנין דכרין: what counts toward it, and when it is measured

Overview

A ברייתא has the תנא קמא and רבי שמעון both requiring one extra דינר beyond the two כתובות before sons can collect their mothers' כתובות, and the גמרא looks for the real difference between them. It tries movables versus land, then free versus liened land, then less than a דינר. Each attempt is challenged. It finally returns to the first two ideas with the opinions reversed, so רבי שמעון is the strict one. מר זוטרא then rules that when one wife died in the husband's lifetime and one after his death, the sons collect כתובת בנין דכרין, and one כתובה can count as the surplus for the other. The גמרא explains why both parts of his ruling are needed: we do not worry that the heirs will quarrel. A new משנה follows. If the estate covers only the two כתובות, all the sons split it equally. With one extra דינר, each family takes its mother's כתובה. בית דין sets the value, and future property does not count. רבי שמעון holds that only land counts. The גמרא then asks what happens if the estate grew after the father died. It brings the case of בר צרצור, which went from רב עמרם to רב נחמן, whose answer continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (23)

1. ResolutionFirst suggestion: they argue about whether the extra דינר can be movable property
2. ChallengeChallenge from the משנה: רבי שמעון says movable property counts for nothing
3. ResolutionSecond suggestion: they argue about whether the extra דינר can be sold, liened land
4. ChallengeChallenge from רבי שמעון's wording: 'if there is' should be 'since there is'
5. ResolutionA new explanation: they argue about less than a dinar
6. ChallengeBut רבי שמעון mentions a dinar
7. RejectionFlipping the opinions doesn't work either
8. ConclusionBack to the first two explanations, with the opinions flipped
9. ConclusionThe הלכה of מר זוטרא in the name of רב פפא
10. ChallengeWhy does מר זוטרא need to say both rulings?
11. ResolutionWithout the first ruling, we might limit it to a case with three wives
12. ResolutionWe do not worry that the heirs will quarrel
13. StatementOnly enough for two כתובות: the sons split equally
14. StatementAn extra דינר left over: each set of sons takes its mother's כתובה
15. StatementThe sons cannot raise the value themselves; בית דין appraises
16. StatementProperty only expected later does not count
17. Statementרבי שמעון: Only land counts toward the extra dinar
18. Statementברייתא: The rule holds even when the two marriage contracts differ in size
19. StatementObvious case: The estate was large at death and later shrank
20. QuestionQuestion: What if the estate was small at death and later grew?
21. ProofThe case of בר צרצור's estate before רב עמרם
22. Proofרב עמרם threatens the brothers who refuse to make peace
23. Responseרב נחמן begins his ruling by comparing it to property that lost value