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Menachos 17b

מנחות י״ז ע״ב

Menachot 17b

Learn Menachos 17b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Menachos 17b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

How the רבנן and רבי אליעזר read ״הֵאָכֹל יֵאָכֵל״, whether רבי אליעזר's disqualification brings כרת, and the ברייתא about leaving blood overnight

Overview

The גמרא continues a debate from the משנה. רבי אליעזר says a קרבן becomes invalid if the כהן plans to eat something normally burned, or burn something normally eaten, and the רבנן disagree. First the גמרא shows how the רבנן use the double word ״הֵאָכֹל יֵאָכֵל״ for other lessons. Then it shows רבי אליעזר's answer: the change in the word's form teaches two things. רבי זירא then asks why, if the source is the פיגול verse, there is no כרת, especially since רבי יוחנן said רבי אליעזר admits there is no כרת. רב אסי answers that תנאים disagree about whether רבי אליעזר's disqualification is from the תורה or only rabbinic. To show this, the גמרא brings a ברייתא about mixed-up thoughts and about planning to leave the blood overnight, where רבי יהודה and רבי אלעזר both speak. The גמרא first suggests that the two differ about כרת. It then rejects this and says the ברייתא holds three separate disputes, and the explanation continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

דְּלָא שְׁנָא כִּי מְחַשֵּׁב

that there is no difference if he intends

בִּלְשׁוֹן אֲכִילָה לְמִזְבֵּחַ,

using the language of eating for the altar,

וְלָא שְׁנָא כִּי מְחַשֵּׁב

and there is no difference if he intends

בִּלְשׁוֹן הַקְטָרָה לַמִּזְבֵּחַ.

using the language of burning on the altar.

The steps (12)

  1. ResolutionThe רבנן's use of the double word: eating language and burning language are the same
  2. ResolutionAnother option for the רבנן: the כזית measure applies to burning too
  3. Resolutionרבי אליעזר's answer: the change in the word's form teaches two things
  4. Challengeרבי זירא asks: then why not כרת too?
  5. ChallengeBlocking the escape: רבי אליעזר admits there is no כרת
  6. Resolutionרב אסי: תנאים argue about רבי אליעזר's view
  7. ProofThe ברייתא about mixed-up thoughts and leaving blood overnight
  8. QuestionWhose view does רבי יהודה follow?
  9. RejectionIt cannot follow the רבנן
  10. ChallengeIf it follows רבי אליעזר, רבי אלעזר adds nothing
  11. ProofSuggestion: The difference between them is about כרת
  12. RejectionRejection: No כרת for anyone, and there are three disputes