Gemara Clarity

Menachos 23b

מנחות כ״ג ע״ב

Menachot 23b

Learn Menachos 23b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Menachos 23b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

When is מין במינו בטל according to רבי יהודה, and do we check the מבטל (רב חסדא) or the בטל (רבי חנינא)?

Overview

The גמרא wants to know which opinion stands behind רב חסדא and רבי חנינא, who argue about mixtures of נבילה and שחוטה. It bases them on רבי חייא's teaching that נבילה and שחוטה are בטל in each other. It then reads רבי יהודה this way: מין במינו is not בטל only when one item can actually become like the other. רב חסדא checks whether the larger item (the מבטל) can become like the smaller one. רבי חנינא checks whether the smaller item (the בטל) can become like the larger one. The גמרא tests both views against several cases in the משנה about mixed מנחות, קומץ, and שירים. Each time, it answers with רבי זירא's rule: since הקטרה is said about both the קומץ and the שירים, they do not cancel each other. A ברייתא about seasoned מצה is also deflected: it speaks of a mixture that is mostly מצה. A new story then begins, in which רב כהנא hears the sons of רבי חייא discussing a divided עשרון; that discussion continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

רַבִּי יְהוּדָה בָּתַר חֲזוּתָא אָזֵיל,

Rabbi Yehuda follows the appearance,

וְאִידֵּי וְאִידֵּי מִין בְּמִינוֹ הוּא.

and this and that are a substance with its own kind.

אֶלָּא, אַלִּיבָּא דְּרַבִּי חִיָּיא,

Rather, it is according to Rabbi Chiya,

דְּתָנֵי רַבִּי חִיָּיא:

as Rabbi Chiya teaches:

The steps (25)

  1. Rejectionרבי יהודה judges by appearance, so this attempt fails
  2. ResolutionA new basis: the ברייתא of רבי חייא
  3. ChallengeWhose view does Rabbi Chiya follow?
  4. Resolutionרבי יהודה's rule only applies when one can become like the other
  5. StatementWhat exactly רב חסדא and רבי חנינא disagree about
  6. ProofProof for רבי חנינא from two mixed meal offerings
  7. QuestionWhich תנא wrote this משנה? Not the רבנן
  8. ResponseThe משנה must follow רבי יהודה
  9. ChallengeSetup: the משנה fits רבי חנינא easily
  10. ChallengeHow would רב חסדא explain the משנה?
  11. ResolutionThe משנה rests on רבי זירא's special rule
  12. ProofA new case: a קומץ mixed into a מנחה not yet נקמצה
  13. QuestionWhose view is it? It cannot be the רבנן
  14. ResponseIt must be רבי יהודה
  15. ChallengeBy רב חסדא the case works easily
  16. ChallengeBy רבי חנינא: can a קומץ become an unfinished מנחה?
  17. ResolutionThis case also comes from רבי זירא's comparison
  18. ChallengeA handful mixed into another offering's leftovers
  19. QuestionWhose view does this case follow?
  20. Resolutionרבי זירא's comparison of burning again
  21. ProofA new proof from seasoned מצה
  22. ChallengeSeasoned מצה fits one view but challenges the other
  23. ResolutionThe case is where most of it is מצה
  24. ProofThe wording 'seasoned מצה' supports this answer
  25. Statementרב כהנא hears the sons of רבי חייא discussing a divided עשרון