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Menachos 3b

מנחות ג׳ ע״ב

Menachot 3b

Learn Menachos 3b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Menachos 3b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Three answers (רבא, רב אשי, and רבה) to the clash between רבי שמעון's rulings on a מנחה brought for the wrong purpose

Overview

This amud gives three answers to a clash between two ברייתות of רבי שמעון. One ברייתא says a מנחה brought for the wrong purpose still counts for its owner, and the other says it does not. רבא says intent for a different מנחה is fine, because 'וזאת תורת המנחה' makes all מנחות one law, but intent for a זבח is not. The גמרא then asks whether the same logic would make a חטאת slaughtered for another חטאת valid, and brings different views on that. רב אשי answers that naming only a different pan does no harm, but naming a different kind of מנחה does. רב אחא בריה דרבא challenges him with a dry מנחה brought for the sake of a mixed one, and רב אשי defends his answer. The גמרא then explains why each אמורא rejected the other answers. It ends by starting רב הושעיא's question about a מנחה brought for the sake of a זבח, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

וּמַאי זְבָחִים?

And what are 'slaughtered offerings'?

רוֹב זְבָחִים.

Most slaughtered offerings.

רָבָא אָמַר, לָא קַשְׁיָא:

Rava said: It is not difficult:

כָּאן – בְּקוֹמֵץ מִנְחָה לְשׁוּם מִנְחָה,

Here, it is where one takes the handful of a meal offering for the sake of a meal offering,

The steps (27)

  1. QuestionWhich slaughtered offerings did רבי שמעון mean?
  2. ResponseHe meant most slaughtered offerings
  3. Resolutionרבא: it depends on what the wrong intent was
  4. ProofThe פסוק behind רבא's split
  5. ChallengeBut רבי שמעון gave a different reason
  6. ResolutionThe פסוק saves it even when the actions don't prove it
  7. QuestionWhat does 'but with זבחים it is not so' mean?
  8. ResponseNo 'one law' פסוק joins מנחה and זבח
  9. ChallengeThen a חטאת slaughtered for another חטאת should be valid
  10. ResolutionFor רבי שמעון, yes, it really is valid
  11. StatementFor the רבנן: valid for דם or עבודה זרה, invalid for נזיר or מצורע
  12. Statementרב אחא's version: every such חטאת is invalid
  13. Resolutionרב אשי: naming a pan versus naming a מנחה
  14. ResolutionWhy a thought about a pan does no harm
  15. ChallengeBut רבי שמעון gave a different reason
  16. ResolutionWhat רבי שמעון's words really mean
  17. QuestionWhat did רבי שמעון mean about animal offerings?
  18. ResponseIn a זבח the thought is about the slaughter itself
  19. ChallengeChallenge from a dry מנחה offered as a mixed one
  20. ResolutionHe meant only 'for the sake of mixing'
  21. ChallengeThen say the same about שלמים
  22. ResolutionA זבח is called שלמים, but a מנחה is never called just 'mixed'
  23. RejectionWhy the others reject רבה's answer
  24. RejectionWhy the others reject רבא's answer
  25. RejectionWhy the others reject רב אשי's answer
  26. StatementWhat was obvious to רבה and רבא was a question for רב הושעיא
  27. Questionרב הושעיא begins his question: a מנחה for the sake of a זבח