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Menachos 87b

מנחות פ״ז ע״ב

Menachot 87b

Learn Menachos 87b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

The measuring vessels of the מקדש: the dry עשרון measures and the dispute of רבי מאיר and חכמים, רמי בר חמא's three questions, and the seven liquid measures.

Overview

This amud finishes a ברייתא about the dry measures in the מקדש. רבי מאיר holds there were two עשרון vessels. חכמים say there was only one עשרון, and they read the doubled 'עשרון עשרון' as adding a half-עשרון vessel. The גמרא shows that each side uses every part of the פסוקים, with differences over whether to learn from an extra ו or from the dots in the Torah. Next, רב ששת explains that the half-עשרון vessel did not measure each half from scratch. It only divided the כהן גדול's full tenth into two halves. רמי בר חמא then asks רב חסדא three questions. Was the half-עשרון heaped or leveled? Leveled. Were the חביתין divided by hand or with a vessel? By hand, since weighing bread recalls a curse. Does the שלחן make holy קמצים placed on it? Only enough for them to become פסול, not enough to be offered. Finally, a new משנה lists seven liquid measures in the מקדש, with different views from רבי אליעזר בר רבי צדוק and רבי שמעון. The גמרא begins with a ברייתא giving the lists of רבי יהודה, רבי מאיר and רבי שמעון, and רבי שמעון's words continue on the next amud.

Opening lines

מָחוּק שֶׁבּוֹ הָיָה מוֹדֵד

The leveled one was the vessel with which he would measure

לַחֲבִיתֵּי כֹּהֵן גָּדוֹל.

for the High Priest's griddle-cake offering.

וַחֲכָמִים אוֹמְרִים:

And the Rabbis say:

לֹא הָיָה שָׁם אֶלָּא עִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד,

There was only one tenth-measure there,

The steps (34)

  1. StatementThe leveled measure was used for the High Priest's daily offering
  2. Statementחכמים say there was only one tenth-measure
  3. QuestionThen what does the doubled 'tenth, tenth' teach?
  4. ResponseThe doubled word adds a half-tenth vessel
  5. QuestionWhere does רבי מאיר get the half-tenth from?
  6. Responseרבי מאיר learns it from the extra 'and'
  7. Responseחכמים do not expound the letter 'and'
  8. QuestionWhat does רבי מאיר do with 'one tenth for each lamb'?
  9. ResponseMeasure one tenth at a time, not with a bigger vessel
  10. Responseחכמים learn the rule from the dotted ו
  11. Responseרבי מאיר does not learn from dots
  12. StatementThe משנה: the half-tenth measured the High Priest's offering
  13. ChallengeContradiction: the High Priest brought a whole tenth and split it
  14. Resolutionרב ששת: 'Measure' means 'divide'
  15. QuestionWas the half-tenth vessel heaped or leveled?
  16. StatementA memory aid for the coming questions
  17. QuestionWhy ask only according to רבי מאיר?
  18. ResponseFor חכמים, the question starts with the tenth itself
  19. Responseרב חסדא: רבי מאיר's own view gives the answer
  20. ResponseThe half-tenth vessel was leveled, by רבי מאיר and by the חכמים
  21. QuestionHow were the חביתין divided into loaves: by hand or with a vessel?
  22. ResponseObviously by hand, since we would not bring scales in
  23. ChallengeSo let him bring scales in
  24. ResolutionWeighing bread is written as a curse, so it is not fitting
  25. QuestionDoes the שלחן make holy קמצים placed on its upper part?
  26. ResponseThe Table does not make the handfuls holy
  27. ChallengeChallenge from רבי יוחנן: the Table makes holy far above it
  28. ResolutionHoly enough to become פסול, not enough to be offered
  29. StatementThe seven liquid measures in the Temple
  30. StatementOne hin vessel with marked lines
  31. StatementNo hin vessel, but a vessel of a log and a half
  32. Statementרבי יהודה lists the seven vessels from smallest to largest
  33. Statementרבי מאיר lists the same vessels from largest to smallest
  34. Statementרבי שמעון in the ברייתא: no הין vessel