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Nedarim 13a

נדרים י״ג ע״א

Learn Nedarim 13a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Is the dispute about vowing with בשר בכור the same as the question of whether a person means the animal before or after זריקת דמים? The גמרא says no: the dispute is really about whether a נדר can take hold through something forbidden by the Torah (דבר האסור) rather than by a vow (דבר הנדור).

Overview

The amud opens by asking whether the dispute about someone who compares his meat to בשר בכור depends on which stage of the animal he means, before or after זריקת דמים. The גמרא answers no: everyone agrees he means the stage before the sprinkling. The real argument is whether a vow can be attached to a דבר האסור, something the Torah forbids, or only to a דבר הנדור, something forbidden through a vow. The one who permits learns from 'כי ידר' that only a דבר הנדור works, and uses 'לה׳' to include חטאת and אשם, which a person makes holy by declaring them. The one who forbids points to a ברייתא in the name of רבי that there is a מצוה to declare a בכור holy. The other side answers that a בכור is holy even without that declaration. Next, a ברייתא lists Temple items like the lamb, the pens, the altar and ירושלים, and the גמרא identifies it as רבי מאיר. It then reconciles the ברייתא's second half with his view by splitting 'not for a lamb' from 'for a lamb'. A new משנה follows about vows that use the names of offerings. The גמרא says its unattributed author is רבי מאיר, then challenges this from a ברייתא that permits 'הא קרבן', which only swears by the life of an offering. The answer to that challenge comes on the next amud.

Opening lines

דְּמַחֵית בְּשַׂר בְּכוֹר

where he places meat of a firstborn animal

וּמַחֵית בָּשָׂר דְּהַאיְךְ גַּבֵּיהּ,

and places other meat next to it,

וְאָמַר ״זֶה כָּזֶה״.

and he said: 'This is like this.'

וְתַנָּאֵי הִיא.

And is it a dispute between תנאים?

The steps (18)

  1. QuestionIs the firstborn-meat dispute a disagreement between תנאים about the animal's stage?
  2. RejectionNo: everyone means before the sprinkling, and the one who permits learns from 'כי ידר'
  3. ProofThe one who forbids learns from 'לה׳' that a דבר האסור also works
  4. QuestionWhat does the one who permits do with 'לה׳'?
  5. ResponseHe uses 'לה׳' for attaching a vow to a חטאת or אשם
  6. QuestionWhy include חטאת and אשם but leave out the בכור?
  7. Responseחטאת and אשם are holy through a vow, but a בכור is holy from birth
  8. StatementThe one who forbids: a בכור also counts as holy through a vow
  9. ProofProof from רבי: there is a מצוה to declare a בכור holy
  10. RejectionThe one who permits: a בכור is holy even without the declaration
  11. StatementQuoting the next words of the משנה: like the lamb, like the enclosures
  12. StatementA ברייתא lists vow phrases using Temple items
  13. StatementIdentifying the ברייתא as רבי מאיר
  14. ChallengeThe second half seems to clash with רבי מאיר
  15. ResolutionDifferent wordings: 'not for a lamb' versus 'for a lamb'
  16. StatementThe משנה on vows using offering names
  17. StatementThe unattributed משנה follows רבי מאיר
  18. ChallengeBut even the חכמים permit 'this offering'