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Nedarim 12b

נדרים י״ב ע״ב

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Topic

Does a נדר compare to an item's original status or its current status? תרומת לחמי תודה and the 'like a בכור' dispute

Overview

When someone makes a נדר by comparing food to something holy, does he mean the item's original, forbidden status or its status right now? רבינא tries to prove from the משנה that he means the original status, because תרומת לחמי תודה is only taken after זריקת דמים, when it is already permitted to כהנים. The גמרא rejects this proof in two ways. First, the משנה's hint may point to תרומת הלשכה, which is always forbidden. A short question and answer shows that the משנה's word 'תרומתו' itself means תרומת לחמי תודה. Second, תרומת לחמי תודה can be separated during kneading, before זריקת דמים, while it is still forbidden. שמואל's ruling that four loaves are valid backs this up, since with four loaves the תרומה can only be taken properly from the dough at kneading. The גמרא then suggests that our question matches a מחלוקת between רבי יעקב and רבי יהודה about a נדר 'like a בכור'. It begins to show that neither the 'before' case nor the 'after' case explains both opinions, and its conclusion continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

וְהָא תְּרוּמַת לַחְמֵי תוֹדָה —

But the teruma of the thanks-offering loaves —

לְאַחַר זְרִיקַת דָּמִים הִיא.

is only after the sprinkling of the blood.

אֵימָא: ״כִּתְרוּמַת הַלִּשְׁכָּה״ — אָסוּר.

Say: 'like the teruma of the chamber' — is forbidden.

אֲבָל תְּרוּמַת לַחְמֵי תוֹדָה מַאי — מוּתָּר?

But the teruma of the thanks-offering loaves, what — is it permitted?

The steps (12)

  1. Proofרבינא's proof: תרומת לחמי תודה comes after זריקת דמים
  2. RejectionRejection: the משנה's hint may refer to the Temple chamber collection
  3. ChallengeChallenge: then the משנה should have taught the thanks-offering loaves
  4. ResolutionAnswer: 'תרומתו' in the משנה means תרומת לחמי תודה
  5. RejectionSecond rejection: the teruma can be separated before the blood is sprinkled
  6. Proofשמואל: a thanks-offering baked as four loaves is valid
  7. ChallengeBut the Torah requires forty loaves
  8. ResolutionForty is only the ideal way
  9. ChallengeHow can תרומה be taken from only four loaves?
  10. ResolutionThe תרומה was taken from the dough during kneading
  11. StatementMaybe this matches a dispute about vowing 'like a firstborn'
  12. QuestionWhen exactly is the person comparing his item to a בכור?