Gemara Clarity

Niddah 8b

נדה ח׳ ע״ב

Learn Niddah 8b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Niddah 8b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Where הבדלה is said, balsam sap as fruit, the 'virgin of blood', and when a pregnancy counts as known

Overview

The amud opens by finishing an explanation of why רבי אלעזר rules like רבי אליעזר that הבדלה is said in הודאה. רבי אליעזר could not have been quoting רבי חנינא בן גמליאל, who was much younger, so the answer is that רבי חנינא בן גמליאל agreed with him. A ברייתא about the prayers of יום הכפורים seems to show otherwise. רב נחמן בר יצחק answers that there רבי חנינא בן גמליאל was only reporting his forefathers' view. Next, the גמרא returns to whether רבי אליעזר is the תנא who treats balsam sap as fruit, and it shows that even the רבנן may agree in some cases. Then the גמרא turns to the משנה's בתולה, which here means a woman who never saw menstrual blood. It asks why רב כהנא's list of three kinds of בתולה leaves this one out, and several אמוראים give reasons. After that, the גמרא sets three months as the time a pregnancy becomes known. It rules that a pregnant woman who miscarries air keeps her pregnant status. The amud ends with a second ברייתא that seems to contradict that ruling, and the question continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

וְהָא קַשִּׁישׁ מִינֵּיהּ טוּבָא!

But he is much older than him!

אֶלָּא מִשּׁוּם דְּקָאֵי

Rather, it is because he stands

רַבִּי חֲנִינָא בֶּן גַּמְלִיאֵל בְּשִׁיטְתֵיהּ.

Rabbi Chanina ben Gamliel, with his opinion.

וּמִי קָאֵי? וְהָתַנְיָא:

And does he really stand with him? But it is taught:

The steps (31)

  1. Challengeרבי אליעזר was much older
  2. Resolutionרבי חנינא בן גמליאל agrees with him
  3. ChallengeA ברייתא shows רבי חנינא disagrees
  4. ResolutionHe was only quoting his forefathers
  5. Challengeרבי ירמיה's proof about balsam sap
  6. ResolutionEven the רבנן agree about sap that comes from fruit
  7. ResolutionAnother approach: the רבנן agree about a tree that grows no fruit
  8. ProofThe חכמים in that משנה must be the רבנן who argue with רבי אליעזר
  9. RejectionAn elder quotes רבי יוחנן: those חכמים are רבי אליעזר
  10. ChallengeWhy would רבי אליעזר talk only about a tree with no fruit?
  11. Resolutionרבי אליעזר argued on the רבנן's own terms
  12. StatementA virgin of blood, not a virgin of the hymen
  13. Challengeרב כהנא's list of three kinds of virgins
  14. StatementVirgin ground and virgin sycamore
  15. ChallengeWhy isn't the virgin of blood on the list?
  16. ResolutionFirst answer: the list only includes names that need no extra word
  17. ResolutionSecond answer: the list only includes things that depend on an action
  18. ResolutionThird answer: the list only includes things that never go back
  19. ResolutionFourth answer: the list only includes things a buyer cares about
  20. ChallengeChallenge: a husband does care about a woman's blood
  21. ResolutionReworded answer: the list includes things buyers are eager for
  22. StatementHow to recognize virgin ground
  23. QuestionWhen is a pregnancy considered known?
  24. ResponseThree months, hinted at in the story of תמר
  25. ChallengeWhy call a clear פסוק only a hint?
  26. ResolutionPregnancies differ in length
  27. StatementA miscarriage of air does not cancel pregnant status
  28. ProofA hint from ישעיהו: 'we gave birth to wind'
  29. ChallengeAgain: why only a hint?
  30. ResolutionThe פסוק speaks about men
  31. ChallengeA second ברייתא says miscarrying wind is not a real birth