Gemara Clarity

Succah 11b

סוכה י״א ע״ב

Sukkah 11b

Learn Succah 11b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Succah 11b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Whether a later act like cutting counts as 'making' a מצוה object (ציצית, סוכה, לולב), binding the לולב, and the source for valid סכך

Overview

The amud opens by finishing שמואל's point: ציצית may be threaded through two corners at once. רב holds that ציצית tied while their strands were still joined become כשר once the strands are cut apart, because 'cutting is making.' שמואל, לוי, and רב מתנה say such ציצית are פסול forever. A ברייתא about ציצית, together with the rule of תעשה ולא מן העשוי from סוכה, is raised against רב. רב answers the סוכה case, but the ציצית ברייתא stays a קשיא for him. The גמרא then asks whether a תנאים dispute about picking extra berries off a הדס on יום טוב matches רב and שמואל. It rejects that comparison in two ways: perhaps the argument is whether we learn לולב from סוכה, or whether a לולב needs אגד at all. Along the way it explains that binding the לולב is a הידור מצוה based on 'זה אלי ואנוהו.' Finally, the גמרא looks for the Torah source of the rules for סכך: ריש לקיש learns them from the mist (אד), and רבי יוחנן learns them from the חגיגה offering, a source that works even for רבי עקיבא.

Opening lines

בָּעֵינַן כָּנָף בִּשְׁעַת פְּתִיל —

we require a single corner at the time of threading the string —

וְלֵיכָּא, קָא מַשְׁמַע לַן.

and there is none here; so he teaches us (that it is fine).

מֵיתִיבִי: תְּלָאָן וְלֹא פָּסַק

They challenged: If one attached them and did not cut

רָאשֵׁי חוּטִין שֶׁלָּהֶן — פְּסוּלִין.

the ends of their strands — they are invalid.

The steps (26)

  1. ResponseWhy שמואל needed to teach that threading through two corners is fine
  2. ChallengeA ברייתא seems to refute רב
  3. Resolutionרב reads the ברייתא as invalid only until cut
  4. Statementשמואל, לוי, and רב מתנה say invalid forever
  5. Statementרב מתנה's real-life case before שמואל
  6. ChallengeA ברייתא directly says attached then cut is invalid
  7. ProofSupport from סוכה: make it, not from what is already made
  8. ChallengeWorking out the case of the vine-covered סוכה, which seems to refute רב
  9. Resolutionרב answers that the vines were yanked off, not cut
  10. ConclusionThe ציצית ברייתא remains a difficulty for רב
  11. StatementSuggesting a parallel dispute between תנאים about picking berries off a הדס
  12. StatementThe assumptions behind the comparison: לולב needs binding, and it learns from סוכה
  13. ProofSuggesting the תנאים argue exactly like רב and שמואל
  14. RejectionRejection: the argument is only whether we learn לולב from סוכה
  15. RejectionAnother rejection: the argument is whether a לולב needs binding
  16. StatementLinking the binding argument to a known ברייתא
  17. QuestionAsking for רבי יהודה's source
  18. Responseרבי יהודה learns binding from the bundle of hyssop
  19. ResponseThe רבנן reject the גזירה שוה
  20. QuestionWhose opinion is the ברייתא about binding the לולב?
  21. ResponseIt is the רבנן, because a מצוה should be done beautifully
  22. QuestionWhat is the source for the rule about valid roofing?
  23. Responseריש לקיש learns it from the mist rising from the earth
  24. ChallengeThis works only if the desert סוכות were clouds
  25. ProofThe ברייתא showing the תנאים argue about the desert סוכות
  26. Resolutionרבי יוחנן compares סוכה to the חגיגה offering