Chullin 80a

חולין פ׳ ע״א

Learn Chullin 80a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

The כוי and partial-שה rules, the status of forest goats for the מזבח, and whether the משנה of אותו ואת בנו follows רבי שמעון.

Overview

The amud opens by finishing the argument between רבנן and רבי אליעזר: does the word שה include an animal that is only partly a שה? רב פפא explains that both sides are unsure whether the father's species counts. So for כסוי הדם and מתנות, the case must be a כוי from a deer father and a goat mother. For אותו ואת בנו, both kinds of כוי work: with a goat father the argument is over a plain איסור, and with a deer father it is over מלקות. The גמרא then brings other views of what a כוי is: its own creature of undecided status, a wild ram, a goat-deer cross, or a בהמה, as רבן שמעון בן גמליאל says. Next, רב המנונא rules that forest goats may be brought on the מזבח because they are not on the תורה's list of wild animals. The גמרא challenges this: maybe they are the listed אקו, תאו or זמר, and אמימר even permitted their fat. A second version of the same discussion, based on the argument about שור הבר, meets the same challenges. Finally, רבי אושעיא says the whole משנה of כיצד השוחט does not follow רבי שמעון. The proof, built on his rule that an unfit slaughter is not a slaughter, continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (29)

1. ResponseThe core disagreement: does 'partly a sheep' count?
2. Statementרב פפא: the cases only work with a deer and a female goat
3. StatementBoth sides are unsure whether the father counts
4. ConclusionTheir real argument is only about 'partly a sheep'
5. StatementFor אותו ואת בנו, both kinds of כוי work
6. StatementGoat father, deer mother: an argument about a plain prohibition
7. StatementDeer father, goat mother: an argument about מלקות
8. StatementWhy רבי אליעזר forbids it but gives no lashes
9. StatementTwo views on what a כוי is
10. StatementThe same argument among the תנאים
11. Statementרבן שמעון בן גמליאל: the כוי is a domesticated animal
12. StatementForest goats may be brought on the altar
13. ProofThe reason: the Torah lists exactly ten kosher animals
14. ChallengeMaybe the list of wild animals is not complete
15. ResolutionThen why list so many animals?
16. ChallengeMaybe forest goats are the listed wild goat
17. ChallengeMaybe forest goats are a wild ox or a wild sheep
18. Challengeאמימר permitted their fat
19. QuestionA second version: can forest goats go on the altar?
20. ResponseThe only argument is about the wild ox
21. ProofThe משנה about the wild ox and the reasons on each side
22. ConclusionEveryone agrees forest goats are goats
23. ChallengeMaybe forest goats are the wild goat
24. ChallengeOr maybe a wild ox or wild sheep
25. Challengeאמימר permitted their fat, in this version too
26. StatementThe whole משנה is not like רבי שמעון
27. QuestionHow do we know this?
28. ProofThe case of קדשים slaughtered outside
29. Proofרבי שמעון: an unfit slaughter is not a slaughter