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Chullin 80b

חולין פ׳ ע״ב

Learn Chullin 80b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Does the משנה of אותו ואת בנו follow רבי שמעון, and why does it not mention lashes for מחוסר זמן?

Overview

The גמרא tests whether the משנה of אותו ואת בנו follows רבי שמעון. רבי שמעון holds that a שחיטה which does not make the animal usable (שחיטה שאינה ראויה) is not counted as שחיטה. It goes through three cases: קדשים slaughtered outside, חולין slaughtered inside, and קדשים slaughtered inside. In each case, רבי שמעון's rule would mean the first slaughter does not count, so the משנה's ruling about the second animal makes no sense. The גמרא concludes that the משנה does not follow רבי שמעון. It then explains why this needed saying: the קדשים case was not obvious, because their שחיטה is a necessary step for the meat to become permitted. Next the גמרא asks why the second sacrificial animal does not also bring lashes for מחוסר זמן, an animal offered before its time. The first answer is that the משנה lists unrelated prohibitions only for an animal that has no אותו ואת בנו violation. רבי זירא then begins a different answer: set aside מחוסר זמן because of what the פסוק says, and his reasoning continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

קַמָּא מִיקְטָל קַטְלֵיהּ,

The first one, he merely killed it;

שֵׁנִי מִתְקַבֵּל בִּפְנִים הוּא,

the second is fit to be accepted inside;

כָּרֵת נָמֵי לִיחַיַּיב.

let him also be liable to כרת.

חוּלִּין בִּפְנִים –

Non-sacred animals slaughtered inside:

The steps (15)

  1. ChallengeSacrificial animals slaughtered outside: why no כרת for the second?
  2. StatementQuoting the case of non-sacred animals slaughtered inside
  3. ChallengeWhy lashes for the second non-sacred animal according to רבי שמעון?
  4. StatementQuoting the case of sacrificial animals slaughtered inside
  5. ChallengeEven proper sacrificial slaughter is 'unfit' according to רבי שמעון
  6. ConclusionConclusion: the משנה does not follow רבי שמעון
  7. QuestionIsn't this obvious?
  8. ResponseThe case of sacrificial animals needed to be said
  9. ChallengeWhy no lashes for an offering brought too early?
  10. ProofA ברייתא shows that offering a disqualified animal is a לאו
  11. ResolutionThe משנה only lists the prohibitions of אותו ואת בנו
  12. ChallengeChallenge: The משנה Does List an Unrelated Prohibition
  13. ChallengeWhy the First Animal Gets Lashes
  14. ResolutionUnrelated Prohibitions Are Listed Only Where There Is No אותו ואת בנו
  15. Resolutionרבי זירא Begins a Different Answer About מחוסר זמן