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Kesubos 11b

כתובות י״א ע״ב

Ketubot 11b

Learn Kesubos 11b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

The כתובה of a מוכת עץ and of a woman found not to be a בתולה: רב and שמואל, רבי מאיר and the רבנן, and רבא's retraction

Overview

The amud finishes the משנה about women who come into marriage already presumed to be non-virgins. These women get a כתובה of a מנה, and their husband has no טענת בתולים against them. The גמרא then brings a dispute between רב and שמואל about a minor boy who has relations with an adult woman. רב says this makes her a מוכת עץ, and שמואל says there is no מוכת עץ through flesh. Answering רב אושעיא's challenge, רבא shows that the case of מוכת עץ is itself a dispute between רבי מאיר and the רבנן. רמי בר חמא and then רבא try to explain when a מוכת עץ gets 200, a מנה, or nothing, depending on whether the husband knew about her. Along the way, רב ששת rules that a woman found to be a בעולה gets a מנה, and רב נחמן objects that a מקח טעות means she gets nothing. רבא agrees with רב נחמן and rereads a ברייתא so that a מוכת עץ gets a מנה. From that reading the גמרא concludes that רבא retracted his earlier ruling. The amud ends with a new ברייתא: once a first husband brought a woman in for marriage, a second husband cannot make a טענת בתולים.

Opening lines

וְאֵין לָהֶן טַעֲנַת בְּתוּלִים.

And they are not subject to a claim about their virginity.

הַגִּיּוֹרֶת וְהַשְּׁבוּיָה וְהַשִּׁפְחָה

A female convert, a captive woman, or a maidservant

שֶׁנִּפְדּוּ וְשֶׁנִּתְגַּיְּירוּ וְשֶׁנִּשְׁתַּחְרְרוּ,

who were ransomed, who converted, or who were freed,

יְתֵירוֹת עַל בְּנוֹת שָׁלֹשׁ שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד —

when they were more than three years and one day old,

The steps (26)

  1. StatementEnd of the previous clause: no virginity claim
  2. StatementConvert, captive, and maidservant over three years old
  3. Statementרב: a minor's relations make her a מוכת עץ
  4. Rejectionשמואל: there is no מוכת עץ through flesh
  5. StatementA second version: a direct dispute between רב and שמואל
  6. Challengeרב אושעיא challenges רב from a teaching about כתובות
  7. Resolutionרבא rereads the teaching to fit רב
  8. Statementרמי בר חמא limits the dispute to when the husband knew
  9. QuestionWhy doesn't רבי מאיר compare her to a woman who had relations?
  10. ResponseNo person did anything to her
  11. QuestionWhy don't the רבנן compare her to a בוגרת?
  12. ResponseSomething did happen to her
  13. Challengeרב נחמן challenges the claim that everyone agrees she gets nothing
  14. Resolutionרבא explains the dispute a new way
  15. Proofרבא retracts because of a ברייתא about הוצאת שם רע
  16. ChallengeThe ברייתא seems impossible: she should be stoned
  17. ResolutionReading the ברייתא as two separate cases
  18. Statementרב ששת: a בעולה married as a בתולה gets a מנה
  19. Challengeרב נחמן challenges רב ששת: here she gets nothing
  20. ResolutionThe great sages read 'מקח טעות' as losing only the 200
  21. Rejectionרבא agrees with the objection: 'מקח טעות' means total
  22. ChallengeThen the ברייתא about a מנה is difficult again
  23. ResolutionRereading the ברייתא as three cases
  24. Challengeרבא himself said a מוכת עץ gets nothing
  25. Conclusionרבא took back his earlier ruling
  26. StatementAfter a first marriage, the second husband cannot claim she was not a בתולה