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Kesubos 29b

כתובות כ״ט ע״ב

Ketubot 29b

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Topic

The sources for giving the קנס to forbidden girls, and the תנאים who limit it based on ״ולו תהיה לאשה״

Overview

The amud opens by finishing an earlier point: a girl gets the קנס even during the years when her father can still sell her. The גמרא then asks why girls who are forbidden to the man get the קנס at all, since the פסוק says ״ולו תהיה לאשה״. ריש לקיש learns them from the three mentions of ״נערה״, and רב פפא learns them from the three mentions of ״בתולה״. The גמרא asks why each one avoided the other's source. It explains that ״הנערה״ is needed for אביי's rule (no קנס if the girl died) and that ״הבתולות״ is needed for a גזירה שוה. It then shows that each sage needs both of these teachings, so it concludes that all six words are counted together, leaving two words to include girls forbidden by a לאו and by כרת. Next the גמרא brings a ברייתא our משנה rejects: שמעון התימני limits the קנס to a woman whose קידושין works, and רבי שמעון בן מנסיא limits it to a woman he may keep. רבי זירא says they differ over a ממזרת or a נתינה. The גמרא asks what the difference would be according to רבי עקיבא, and answers with an אלמנה and a כהן גדול, following רבי סימאי. It then asks the same question according to רבי ישבב's report of רבי עקיבא, and the answer continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

אַף קְנָס בִּמְקוֹם מֶכֶר.

There is a fine even in a place where there is sale.

וְהָנֵי בְּנֵי קְנָסָא נִינְהוּ?

And are these entitled to the fine?

וְאַמַּאי? אִיקְּרִי כָּאן:

But why? I read here:

״וְלוֹ תִּהְיֶה לְאִשָּׁה״,

“And to him she shall be as a wife,”

The steps (18)

  1. ConclusionA fine can be paid even when the girl can be sold
  2. ChallengeWhy should forbidden girls get the fine at all?
  3. Resolutionריש לקיש: three mentions of ״נערה״ include them
  4. Resolutionרב פפא: three mentions of ״בתולה״ include them
  5. QuestionWhy didn't רב פפא use ריש לקיש's source?
  6. Responseרב פפא needs ״הנערה״ for אביי's rule about a girl who died
  7. QuestionWhy didn't ריש לקיש use רב פפא's source?
  8. Responseריש לקיש needs the ״בתולה״ words for a גזירה שוה
  9. ChallengeEach sage also needs the other's derivation
  10. ResolutionSix words: both sages use all of them
  11. StatementA תנא who limits the fine to a girl he can marry
  12. QuestionWhat is the difference between the two תנאים?
  13. Responseרבי זירא: a ממזרת or a נתינה
  14. QuestionWhat is the difference according to רבי עקיבא?
  15. ResponseThe difference is an אלמנה with a כהן גדול
  16. Proofרבי סימאי's report of רבי עקיבא's view
  17. QuestionWhat is the difference according to רבי ישבב?
  18. ResponseThe answer begins: there is a difference