Kesubos 84b

כתובות פ״ד ע״ב

Ketubot 84b

Learn Kesubos 84b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Seizing a dead debtor's property from the heirs: רבי טרפון versus רבי עקיבא, reversing court rulings, and real cases of seizure

Overview

The גמרא continues the משנה's dispute between רבי טרפון and רבי עקיבא about a man who dies owing money and leaves property to his heirs. First it learns that even for רבי עקיבא, grabbing the property works if it was done while the debtor was still alive. Then it asks where the produce must be for רבי טרפון's rule that whoever grabs first wins. רב and שמואל say only in רשות הרבים; רבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש say even in a סימטא. Next comes a story: judges ruled like רבי טרפון, ריש לקיש reversed it, and רבי יוחנן objected. The גמרא gives three ways to explain their argument, while both sides agree that a mistake in a matter found in the משנה is reversed. More real cases follow: רבי יוחנן's relatives and an orphans' cow, רב נחמן believing a creditor about an ox because of a מגו, and רבי אבא protesting a ruling that favored the נשיא's household. The amud ends as רב פפא and רב הונא object to an agent who seized a dead man's boat at the expense of other creditors. רבי יוחנן's rule about that is completed on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (20)

1. QuestionDoes grabbing never work for רבי עקיבא?
2. ResponseSeizing works if done while the debtor was alive
3. QuestionWhere must the produce be for רבי טרפון?
4. Responseרב and שמואל: only in the public domain
5. Responseרבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש: even in an alley
6. StatementJudges ruled like רבי טרפון and ריש לקיש reversed it
7. Challengeרבי יוחנן objects to the reversal
8. QuestionIs their dispute about a mistake in a משנה ruling?
9. RejectionEveryone agrees a mistake in a משנה is reversed; the argument is about following רבי עקיבא against his teacher
10. ResolutionOr: they argue whether רבי טרפון was רבי עקיבא's teacher or his colleague
11. ResolutionOr: they argue whether the rule was stated as firm הלכה or only as a leaning
12. StatementThe story of the orphans' cow seized from an alley
13. StatementA creditor seizes an ox from the orphans' herdsman
14. Responseרב נחמן believes the creditor because of a מגו
15. ChallengeChallenge: wandering animals do not prove ownership
16. ResolutionAn ox is different because it is given to a shepherd
17. StatementThe נשיא's household seizes an orphans' maidservant
18. Challengeרבי אבא protests: the הלכה does not follow רבי טרפון
19. Statementיימר בר חשו has his agent seize a dead debtor's boat
20. Challengeרב פפא and רב הונא object: seizing at others' expense