Kesubos 85a

כתובות פ״ה ע״א

Ketubot 85a

Learn Kesubos 85a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Seizing a dead debtor's property, a messenger's liability, relying on one trusted person in court, and writing court documents before the fact

Overview

The amud opens by finishing רב נחמן's ruling about a boat grabbed for a dead man's debts. רב פפא and רב הונא בריה דרב יהושע then grab the boat themselves. רבא rejects their grab, quoting רב נחמן that seizing for a debt works only while the debtor is alive. Next, a messenger pays אבימי's debt without getting the שטר back. רבי אבהו believes the lenders through a מיגו, and the גמרא rules that the messenger must repay the sender. A woman holding a bag of documents loses them to the heirs, because her grab counts as after death. רבא relies on בת רב חסדא, whom he knows with certainty, but not on רב פפא as a single witness. The גמרא then concludes that such a witness can only weaken a document. Finally, רב פפי attacks רב ביבי בר אביי for writing a document of rights before an oath. The גמרא rejects רבא's rule behind that attack and starts a proof from רבי יוחנן that continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (33)

1. StatementThe end of רב נחמן's ruling: he did not acquire
2. StatementThe two חכמים grab the boat themselves
3. Challengeרב פנחס בר אמי challenges them with the rule of רב ושמואל
4. ResolutionThey answer: we grabbed it in the middle of the river
5. Rejectionרבא rejects their grab: seizing only works while the debtor is alive
6. StatementA new story: אבימי sends money to pay his debt
7. StatementThe lenders say the money was for a different debt
8. Questionרבי אבהו asks whether there were witnesses to the payment
9. ConclusionThe lenders are believed because they could have denied everything
10. QuestionMust the messenger repay the sender?
11. Responseרב אשי: it depends on the order of the instructions
12. RejectionThe messenger always pays
13. StatementA woman holding a bag of documents says she grabbed it while the owner was alive
14. Questionרב נחמן asks if the owner ever demanded the bag while alive
15. ConclusionHer grab counts as after death, so it is worthless
16. Statementרבא reverses an oath because of a trusted report
17. Statementרב פפא says a document was already paid
18. Questionרבא asks if anyone else knows
19. Conclusionרבא rules that one witness is not enough
20. Challengeרב אדא asks why רב פפא is trusted less than רב חסדא's daughter
21. Resolutionרבא explains that he knows her with certainty
22. Statementרב פפא would tear a document on his trusted son's word
23. ChallengeCan a document really be torn on one witness's word?
24. ResolutionNot tearing, only weakening the document
25. StatementA woman owes an oath, and the other side asks for a public oath
26. StatementShe asks for a document of rights first, and רב ביבי agrees
27. Challengeרב פפי sharply rejects the ruling
28. Proofרבא: a judges' approval written too early is invalid
29. ConclusionWriting it early looks like a lie
30. Rejectionרבא's rule is not accepted because of רבי מאיר's view
31. StatementThe Rabbis disagree only about a גט
32. ProofProof from a loan document that was repaid
33. ProofInference from רבי יוחנן's reason