Gemara Clarity

Kiddushin 8a

קידושין ח׳ ע״א

Learn Kiddushin 8a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Kiddushin 8a in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Whether שוה כסף must have a fixed value (proofs of רב יוסף), and קידושין with a promised מנה

Overview

רב יוסף teaches that an item used in place of money (שוה כסף) must have a fixed, clear value, just like coins. His first proof is a ברייתא saying an עבד עברי is redeemed with money, not with grain or vessels. The other side, רבה, reads that ברייתא differently: either it rules out חליפין, or it is about items worth less than a פרוטה. רב יוסף then brings a second proof from פדיון הבן: a calf or cloak works only when it is stated to be worth five סלעים. The גמרא deflects this too. The items may be worth less, and a כהן like רב כהנא accepted them at five סלעים, which רב אשי limits to an important person who truly needs the item. Next, רבי אלעזר rules that a man who says 'be betrothed with a מנה' and gives one דינר has made a valid קידושין, because it is like saying 'על מנת', which works 'from now.' The גמרא defends this against a ברייתא that lets either side back out until the last coin, and it explains that ברייתא's cases of a copper coin and a bad coin. Finally, רב נחמן rules that giving a משכון instead of the promised מנה does not make a קידושין.

Opening lines

אַף שָׁוֶה כֶּסֶף נָמֵי דְּקִיץ.

So too, an item worth money must also be fixed in value.

אָמַר רַב יוֹסֵף:

Rav Yosef said:

מְנָא אָמֵינָא לַהּ,

From where do I say this?

דְּתַנְיָא: ״מִכֶּסֶף מִקְנָתוֹ״ –

As it is taught: 'Out of the money he was bought for' –

The steps (32)

  1. StatementAn item worth money must also have a fixed value
  2. Proofרב יוסף brings a ברייתא about redeeming a Hebrew slave
  3. QuestionWhat kind of grain and vessels does the ברייתא mean?
  4. RejectionIt cannot mean grain and vessels never work
  5. RejectionIt cannot mean they are worth less than a פרוטה
  6. ProofThey are worth a פרוטה but have no fixed value
  7. RejectionThe other side reads the ברייתא as ruling out חליפין
  8. ChallengeThe חליפין reading does not work for רב נחמן
  9. ResolutionBack to 'less than a פרוטה', read as לא מיבעיא
  10. ResolutionWhy grain and vessels are the less obvious case
  11. Proofרב יוסף's proof from פדיון הבן
  12. ProofWorking out the case of the ברייתא to complete the proof
  13. RejectionThe items are really worth less, but the כהן accepted them
  14. Proofרב כהנא accepted a scarf as five סלעים
  15. Statementרב אשי limits this to an important person like רב כהנא
  16. Proofמר בר רב אשי paid thirteen for a scarf worth ten
  17. StatementPromising a מנה but giving a דינר
  18. ResponseIt is as if he said 'על מנת'
  19. StatementSaying 'on condition' is like saying 'from now'
  20. ChallengeA ברייתא lets them back out until the last coin
  21. ResolutionThe ברייתא means 'this מנה'
  22. ChallengeThe end of the ברייתא already covers 'this מנה'
  23. ProofQuoting the end of the ברייתא about 'this מנה'
  24. ResolutionThe end of the ברייתא explains the beginning
  25. ProofLogic supports reading the whole ברייתא as 'this מנה'
  26. RejectionThe supporting logic is pushed aside
  27. Resolutionרב אשי: counting out the money is different
  28. ChallengeHow could she not know about the copper coin?
  29. ResolutionShe did not notice: it was night, or it was mixed in
  30. ChallengeIsn't a bad דינר the same as a copper one?
  31. ResolutionA bad דינר can still be spent, but with difficulty
  32. StatementGiving a משכון instead of the promised מנה