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Menachos 78b

מנחות ע״ח ע״ב

Menachot 78b

Learn Menachos 78b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

When the loaves of a תודה become holy: location, baking, extra loaves, and problems with the slaughter

Overview

The amud opens with a משנה about the forty loaves that come with a תודה. The loaves do not become holy if they are outside the wall or not yet crusted when the animal is slaughtered. רבי יוחנן says 'the wall' means the wall of בית פאגי. ריש לקיש says it means the wall of the עזרה, because the word 'על' requires the loaves to be nearby. The גמרא explains why they repeat the same argument they had about slaughtering the פסח while owning חמץ, and it brings a ברייתא that supports רבי יוחנן. Next, a ברייתא learns from one פסוק three rules: the loaves need a crust, they become holy at the slaughter, and a slaughter שלא לשמה does not make them holy. רבא adds that half-baked bread, like מצה נא, counts for the תודה loaves. חזקיה and רבי יוחנן then argue about a תודה slaughtered with eighty loaves, and רבי זירא, אביי and רב פפא each explain that argument differently. Finally, a new משנה lists which problems still let the loaves become holy. The גמרא says it follows רבי מאיר: a problem before the slaughter means the bread does not become holy, and a problem after it means the bread does.

Opening lines

מַתְנִי׳ הַשּׁוֹחֵט אֶת הַתּוֹדָה לִפְנִים

MISHNA: One who slaughters the thanks offering inside

וְלַחְמָהּ חוּץ לַחוֹמָה –

and its bread is outside the wall,

לֹא קָדַשׁ הַלֶּחֶם.

the bread did not become holy.

שְׁחָטָהּ עַד שֶׁלֹּא קָרְמוּ פָּנֶיהָ בַּתַּנּוּר,

If he slaughtered it before its surface formed a crust in the oven,

The steps (33)

  1. StatementLoaves outside the wall do not become holy
  2. StatementLoaves not yet crusted do not become holy
  3. QuestionWhich wall does the משנה mean?
  4. ResponseTwo answers: the wall of בית פאגי or the wall of the עזרה
  5. Statementריש לקיש's reason: the loaves must be nearby
  6. Statementרבי יוחנן's reason: nearness is not required
  7. ChallengeDidn't they already argue about this?
  8. ProofThe earlier dispute about slaughtering the פסח while owning חמץ
  9. ResolutionBoth disputes are needed: רבי יוחנן might have agreed about the loaves
  10. ResolutionBoth disputes are needed: ריש לקיש might have agreed about the פסח
  11. ProofA ברייתא supports רבי יוחנן
  12. StatementQuoting the משנה about loaves with no crust yet
  13. QuestionAsking for the source
  14. ResponseThe loaves need a crust
  15. ResponseThe loaves become holy at the slaughter
  16. ResponseSlaughter for the wrong purpose does not make the loaves holy
  17. StatementHalf-baked מצה and pot-made מצה work for the מצוה
  18. QuestionWhat counts as half-baked?
  19. Responseשמואל's test: no threads of dough
  20. Statementרבא applies the half-baked bread rule to the loaves of a תודה
  21. ChallengeIsn't this obvious, since both use the word 'bread'?
  22. ResolutionWe might have thought half-baked bread counts as broken
  23. StatementA תודה slaughtered with eighty loaves: חזקיה and רבי יוחנן disagree
  24. Statementרבי זירא: where both sides agree
  25. StatementThe real argument: a backup, or one big offering?
  26. Statementאביי: the argument is about vessels making things holy without intention
  27. Statementרב פפא: the argument is about the knife
  28. StatementA second version of רב פפא: is the knife stronger than other vessels?
  29. Statementמשנה: wrong intention versus a טריפה animal
  30. StatementA blemished animal: do the loaves become holy?
  31. StatementSlaughtered for the wrong purpose: the loaves do not become holy
  32. QuestionWhose view is the משנה?
  33. ResponseIt is רבי מאיר: the rule of before and after the slaughter