Menachos 79b

מנחות ע״ט ע״ב

Menachot 79b

Learn Menachos 79b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Moving leftover נסכים to another זבח (לב בית דין מתנה), and which animals connected to a תודה need loaves

Overview

The גמרא first explains that רבי אלעזר ברבי שמעון follows his father רבי שמעון: blood that is ready to be sprinkled counts as already sprinkled. It then asks how the משנה can let נסכים set aside for one זבח go with a different זבח. רבי ינאי answers that בית דין silently makes a condition on them (לב בית דין מתנה). That condition cannot apply to oil, which is part of the מנחה itself. It also cannot release the נסכים to חולין, because of a גזירה about כלי שרת. Following מתתיה בן יהודה, the נסכים may go only to a זבח slaughtered at that very moment. If there is none, they are immediately treated as disqualified by לינה. The גמרא shows that רבי שמעון does accept the court's silent condition, and his ruling on unneeded תמידין is different because those animals can graze until they get a blemish. A new משנה then teaches that the offspring, replacement and תמורה of a תודה are offered without loaves, and a ברייתא brings the sources in the פסוקים. Finally, רבי יוחנן limits this rule to after כפרה, and רב עמרם asks which case רבי יוחנן means. He shows that the replacement case would teach nothing new; the discussion continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (20)

1. Statementרבי אלעזר follows his father: ready-to-sprinkle counts as sprinkled
2. ChallengeHow can נסכים go to another offering if oil cannot go to another מנחה?
3. Resolutionבית דין silently makes a condition on the נסכים
4. ChallengeThen why not the same condition for oil?
5. ResolutionOil is part of the מנחה itself
6. ChallengeWhy not condition the נסכים to become ordinary?
7. ResolutionA גזירה so people won't think holy things can become ordinary
8. ChallengeShouldn't there also be a decree against moving נסכים to another offering?
9. Resolutionמתתיה בן יהודה: only when another offering is being slaughtered right then
10. ChallengeWhy didn't the משנה state this distinction directly?
11. ResolutionThat is exactly what the משנה means: without a ready offering, they are invalid at once
12. ChallengeDoes רבי שמעון really accept the court's silent stipulation?
13. ResolutionThe daily offerings are different because they can graze
14. StatementThe offspring, replacement and substitute of a thanks offering need no loaves
15. ProofThe verse lets him bring either animal with its loaves
16. ProofOnly one animal gets loaves
17. ProofOffspring, replacements, and substitutes are offered without loaves
18. StatementThe rule applies only after atonement
19. QuestionWhich case is meant?
20. ChallengeIf it means the replacement of an obligatory thanks offering, nothing is new