Menachos 80a

מנחות פ׳ ע״א

Menachot 80a

Learn Menachos 80a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Menachos 80a in Gemara Clarity

Topic

When a תודה needs its לחם: רבי יוחנן's rulings on replacements and offspring, שמואל's comparison to the חטאת, and how a תודה relates to its לחם.

Overview

A letter from רב חנינא quoted רבי יוחנן: one kind of תודה needs לחם if it is brought before the owner's כפרה, but not after. The גמרא rules out the replacement of a voluntary תודה and the offspring of a voluntary תודה. It settles on the offspring of an obligatory תודה. The lesson is that אדם מתכפר בשבח הקדש, and an explicit statement of רבי יוחנן confirms all three rules. Next, שמואל ties the לחם of a תודה to whether a חטאת in the same situation dies or grazes. After challenges from רב עמרם and others, the גמרא concludes that שמואל follows רבי שמעון and said only the 'dies' half of the rule. In doing so he rejects רבי יוחנן's idea of gaining כפרה through שבח הקדש. Finally, רבי אבא teaches that lost לחם is replaced but a lost תודה is not, because the לחם exists for the תודה. רבא then begins a case about money set aside for a תודה, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (23)

1. RejectionCould he mean the replacement of a voluntary thanks offering? No.
2. RejectionCould he mean the offspring of a voluntary thanks offering? No.
3. ResolutionHe meant the offspring of an obligatory thanks offering
4. QuestionWhat is the new lesson here?
5. ResponseA person can gain atonement through the growth of a sanctified animal
6. Statementאביי analyzed the letter the same way
7. ProofAn explicit statement of רבי יוחנן confirms all three rulings
8. Statementשמואל's rule linking sin offering and thanks offering
9. Challengeרב עמרם cites the ברייתא on a lost and found thanks offering
10. ChallengeIn the same case a sin offering grazes
11. Resolutionשמואל follows רבי
12. QuestionWhen does a חטאת ever graze according to רבי?
13. Responseרבי אושעיא's case of two backup חטאות
14. ChallengeIn that same case a תודה needs no לחם
15. Resolutionשמואל follows רבי שמעון instead
16. Challengeרבי שמעון has no grazing at all
17. Resolutionשמואל said only one rule
18. QuestionWhat is שמואל's point?
19. ResponseRejecting רבי יוחנן's 'added value of הקדש'
20. StatementLost loaves are replaced, a lost thanks offering is not
21. QuestionAsking for the reason behind the difference
22. ResponseThe loaves exist for the thanks offering, not the reverse
23. Statementרבא begins a rule about money set aside for a thanks offering