Menachos 81b

מנחות פ״א ע״ב

Menachot 81b

Learn Menachos 81b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Vowing a תודה and its loaves from different kinds of money (חולין versus מעשר שני), and רב הונא's rule that someone who vows only 'loaves of a תודה' must bring the whole offering

Overview

The משנה lists ways to vow a קרבן תודה and its loaves using ordinary money (חולין) or מעשר שני money. If the animal is from חולין and the loaves from מעשר, both must come from חולין. If the animal is from מעשר, he may bring it as he said. Any מעשר used for the loaves must be מעשר שני coins, not מעשר שני wheat. רב הונא rules that vowing 'loaves of a תודה' obligates the whole offering. The גמרא defends him against challenges from the משנה and from a ברייתא that forces someone who vowed 'a תודה without loaves' to bring both. The גמרא then asks why that vow is not simply cancelled as a mistake. חזקיה says the ברייתא follows בית שמאי's rule of going by the first words. רבי יוחנן says it can fit בית הלל too, and אביי and רבא explain the פסוק 'שמור ושמעת'. Finally רב נחמן and רב חסדא allow loaves made from wheat bought with מעשר שני money. רבי זירא disagrees and begins laying out the reasoning on both sides, which continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (28)

1. StatementThanks offering from ordinary money, loaves from tithe money
2. StatementThanks offering from tithe money with loaves from either source
3. StatementLoaves bought with tithe coins, not baked from tithe wheat
4. StatementVowing only loaves still requires the full thanks offering
5. ResponseWhy vowing loaves means vowing the whole offering
6. ChallengeChallenge from the משנה against רב הונא
7. ResolutionHis loaves refer to the offering he already named
8. ChallengeApply the same logic to the first case of the משנה
9. RejectionLoaves complete a תודה, but a תודה never completes loaves
10. StatementA ברייתא: one who vows a תודה without loaves is forced to bring both
11. ChallengeInference: only saying 'תודה' forces him, which challenges רב הונא
12. RejectionThe ברייתא said 'תודה' only to match its parallel case
13. ChallengeWhy force him if his vow carries its own reason to be cancelled
14. Resolutionחזקיה: the ברייתא follows בית שמאי
15. Resolutionרבי יוחנן: even בית הלל agree when he says he would have vowed properly
16. ProofA second ברייתא: he says he never would have vowed, yet we force him
17. ChallengeThis ברייתא fits חזקיה but seems to contradict רבי יוחנן
18. Resolutionרבי יוחנן: this ברייתא really does follow בית שמאי
19. QuestionWhat does 'שמור ושמעת' mean here?
20. Responseאביי: one word for the animal, one for the bread
21. Responseרבא: bring everything, and don't make a habit of such vows
22. ChallengeMust a תודה vowed from מעשר money really come from מעשר?
23. Resolutionרב נחמן and רב חסדא: using מעשר money is his choice
24. StatementThe next line of the משנה about the bread
25. StatementOnly the actual tithe wheat is forbidden
26. Statementרבי ירמיה teaches the same rule before רבי זירא
27. Challengeרבי זירא disagrees: even bought wheat is not allowed
28. Statementרבי זירא begins with רבי ירמיה's reasoning: learned from שלמים