Niddah 24a

נדה כ״ד ע״א

Learn Niddah 24a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

Badly formed miscarriages: when the mother is טמאה לידה, and the two-backed creature

Overview

This amud deals with miscarried fetuses that are badly formed, and asks when the mother still counts as having given birth (טומאת לידה). First, רבי זכאי, רבי ינאי and רבי יוחנן argue how much of the lower body must be missing: up to the knee, the orifices, or the navel. The גמרא ties the first argument to whether a טרפה can live, and the second to רבי אלעזר's rule about an animal whose thigh and its recess were removed. רב פפא adds that if anything at all is missing from the head, the mother is טהורה, and רבי יוחנן's rulings about a sealed skull and a palm-branch shape fit this. Next, רבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש argue about a fetus with a mashed or flat face, and רב פפי reworks their argument after a challenge from a ברייתא. A story about רבי חייא's sons teaches that a 'strict' ruling can lead to a leniency, because it gives the woman ימי טוהר. Finally, רב and שמואל argue about a creature with two backs and two spines: whether it can live, whether it counts as a birth, and whether it may be eaten. The גמרא tests their views against two ברייתות. רב's reading of the second ברייתא is given here, and שמואל's reading comes on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (23)

1. StatementThree opinions on how much of the lower body must be missing
2. StatementThe first two opinions disagree about whether a טרפה can live
3. StatementThe second two opinions disagree about רבי אלעזר's rule
4. StatementThe dispute is only about the lower body; anything missing from the head makes her pure
5. ProofSupport from רבי יוחנן: a fetus with a sealed skull
6. StatementA fetus shaped like a palm tree's branching top
7. StatementDispute over a fetus with a mashed face
8. ChallengeChallenge from the shaped hand or foot
9. ResolutionThe argument is really about a flat face, and the sides are reversed
10. ChallengeWhy didn't ריש לקיש challenge רבי יוחנן from the same ברייתא?
11. ResolutionA sealed body and a flat face are the same
12. Statementרבי חייא's sons ruled a flat-faced fetus impure
13. Statementרבי חייא: your strictness led to a leniency
14. StatementA creature with two backs and two spines
15. QuestionWhat exactly are רב and שמואל arguing about?
16. ResponseThe argument is about רב חנין בר אבא's two-backed creature
17. StatementDoes the two-backed creature really exist?
18. ChallengeA ברייתא suggests a person with two backs can live
19. Resolutionרב: the ברייתא means a crooked spine
20. ChallengeA ברייתא about forbidden fetuses mentions the two-backed creature
21. ChallengeWhat does 'excluded' mean? A challenge to שמואל
22. ResolutionEach sage reads the ברייתא his own way
23. Resolutionרב's reading of the ברייתא