Pesachim 84b

פסחים פ״ד ע״ב

Learn Pesachim 84b step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Pesachim 84b in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Finding the practical difference between 'כשר' and רבי's 'ראוי לאכילה' for שבירת העצם, and the dispute between רבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש about meat located elsewhere on the limb

Overview

The word 'בו' in the פסוק forbidding שבירת העצם of the קרבן פסח can be read in two ways. One view limits the איסור to a כשר פסח. רבי limits it to a פסח that is ראוי לאכילה. The גמרא searches for a practical case where these two views give different results. One אמורא after another proposes a case, and the next אמורא rejects it: a פסח הבא בטומאה, a פסח once valid and then disqualified, breaking a bone by day, a limb that partly went outside, raw meat, the tail, and a bone with less than a כזית. The list ends with רבינא's case: a limb with no כזית at the break but a כזית elsewhere. A ברייתא of רבי is then shown to support four of these suggestions. Finally, רבי יוחנן and ריש לקיש dispute רבינא's case. רבי יוחנן challenges ריש לקיש from a ברייתא, and ריש לקיש's answer begins at the very end of the amud and continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (30)

1. ResponseFirst suggested difference: an impure פסח
2. Rejectionרב יוסף rejects the impure-Pesach case
3. Responseרב יוסף's case: once valid, then disqualified
4. Rejectionאביי rejects רב יוסף's case
5. Responseאביי's case: breaking a bone while it is still day
6. ChallengeChallenge from רבי's ruling about thigh-bone marrow
7. Resolutionאביי answers: your logic would also allow burning the bone at night
8. ResolutionWhy burning the bone is still forbidden by the Rabbis
9. ConclusionDaytime breaking is banned only by a rabbinic decree
10. Rejectionרב פפא rejects the daytime case
11. Responseרב פפא's case: a limb that partly went outside
12. ProofA ברייתא Supports the Limb-That-Went-Out Case
13. RejectionThe Limb That Went Out Is Fully Disqualified
14. ResolutionNew Difference: Breaking a Bone of Raw Meat
15. RejectionRaw Meat Can Still Be Roasted and Eaten
16. ResolutionNew Difference: Breaking a Bone in the Tail
17. RejectionThe Tail Is Certainly Not Eaten At All
18. Resolutionרב אשי's Difference: A Bone Without an Olive's Worth of Meat
19. Rejectionרבינא rejects the limb with less than an olive-size of meat
20. Resolutionרבינא's difference: an olive-size of meat elsewhere on the limb
21. ProofA ברייתא of רבי: the rule applies to a valid קרבן only
22. ProofOnce valid but disqualified at eating time: no prohibition
23. ProofThe prohibition requires a minimum eating amount
24. ProofWhat is fit for the altar has no prohibition of breaking a bone
25. ProofThe prohibition applies only at the time of eating
26. StatementA dispute about a limb with meat only in a different spot
27. Challengeרבי יוחנן brings a ברייתא against ריש לקיש
28. QuestionWhat does 'without an olive-bulk' mean?
29. ChallengeThe ברייתא means meat in another place, a difficulty for ריש לקיש
30. ResolutionOpening the Response to the Challenge