Succah 19a

סוכה י״ט ע״א

Sukkah 19a

Learn Succah 19a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

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Topic

אביי and רבא on putting סכך over an אכסדרה (portico) with פצימין (posts): does פי תקרה יורד וסותם (or לבוד) create walls for the סוכה? The גמרא also gives two versions of the dispute, from סורא and from פומבדיתא.

Overview

In the סורא version, everyone agrees that סכך over an אכסדרה with posts is כשרה. אביי and רבא argue about a portico without posts. אביי says the edge of the portico roof 'comes down and closes' (פי תקרה יורד וסותם), and רבא says that rule only makes walls for the portico itself. A משנה is raised against אביי, and רבא answers it for him: there the roofs were made level, so no edge shows. In the פומבדיתא version, the argument is instead about a portico with posts and whether לבוד makes walls for the סוכה. The הלכה follows the סורא version. רב אשי challenges רב כהנא for building on a portico without posts, and the answer is that it really had a post, seen from one side only, just like a לחי in a מבוי. Next comes a ברייתא: פסל that 'goes out' from the סוכה is treated like the סוכה. עולא, רבה with רב יוסף, רבי יוחנן and רבי אושעיא each explain it differently. רבי אושעיא's reading leads to the question of whether something can count toward a measure without being valid itself, and רבי יצחק בן אלישיב's answer continues on the next amud.

Opening lines

The steps (31)

1. StatementThe dispute is according to רב
2. Resolutionרבא limits רב's rule to walls made for the portico
3. ChallengeChallenge to אביי from the משנה of the courtyard surrounded by a portico
4. Resolutionרבא answers for אביי: the roofs were made level
5. StatementThe פומבדיתא version of the dispute
6. StatementThe reasons in the פומבדיתא version: לבוד
7. ConclusionThe הלכה follows the first version
8. Challengeרב אשי challenges רב כהנא's sukkah on a portico without posts
9. Resolutionרב כהנא shows the post is visible from inside
10. ResolutionAnother version: the post is visible from outside
11. ProofSupport from the laws of a לחי in a מבוי
12. StatementA ברייתא: roofing that extends beyond the סוכה counts as the סוכה
13. QuestionWhat does 'פסל extending from the סוכה' mean?
14. Responseעולא: branches sticking out behind the סוכה
15. ChallengeDoesn't the extra area need three walls?
16. ResolutionThe case has three walls
17. ChallengeDoesn't the extra area need the minimum size?
18. ResolutionThe case has the minimum size
19. ChallengeDoesn't the extra area need more shade than sun?
20. ResolutionThe case has more shade than sun
21. ChallengeIf so, what is the ברייתא teaching?
22. ResolutionThe walls count even though they were built for the inside
23. Responseרבה and רב יוסף: branches sticking out in front
24. Responseרבי יוחנן: a small part with too much sun
25. QuestionThen what does 'sticking out' mean?
26. ResponseIt sticks out of the rules, not out of the building
27. Responseרבי אושעיא: the ברייתא is about a small strip of unfit roofing in a small סוכה
28. Challengeרב הושעיא objects: unfit roofing is surely no worse than empty air
29. Resolutionרבי אבא: unfit roofing is better than air because you may sleep under it
30. ChallengeHow can something help the סוכה count when it is not valid itself?
31. Resolutionרבי יצחק בן אלישיב begins: yes, such a thing exists