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Succah 5a

סוכה ה׳ ע״א

Sukkah 5a

Learn Succah 5a step by step: Aramaic beside English, every question, answer and proof colour-coded.

Open Succah 5a in Gemara Clarity

Topic

Ten טפחים as a separate domain: רבי יוסי's ברייתא, and the source for the כפורת being one טפח

Overview

The גמרא wants to show that ten טפחים off the ground is a real boundary, which is why a סוכה must be at least ten טפחים tall. It brings a ברייתא where רבי יוסי says the שכינה never came down to earth and משה and אליהו never went up to heaven. Five פסוקים seem to say otherwise. Each time the answer is the same: the שכינה stayed above ten טפחים, and משה and אליהו stayed below ten. Next the גמרא checks the calculation that the ארון (nine טפחים) plus the כפורת (one טפח) equals ten. The ארון's height is written in the תורה, but the כפורת's thickness is not. רבי חנינא teaches that we learn it from the smallest measurement among the vessels, the one-טפח frame (מסגרת) of the שלחן. The גמרא asks why we don't use the larger vessels, the smaller ציץ, or the tiny זר. In the end it rules that we compare only items whose measurements are written in the תורה. רב הונא then offers a different source: the 'face' of the כפורת, since no face is less than a טפח. The גמרא begins to question that proof, and the question continues on the next עמוד.

Opening lines

וְתַנְיָא, רַבִּי יוֹסֵי אוֹמֵר:

And it was taught: Rabbi Yosei says:

מֵעוֹלָם לֹא יָרְדָה שְׁכִינָה לְמַטָּה,

The Divine Presence never came down below,

וְלֹא עָלוּ מֹשֶׁה וְאֵלִיָּהוּ לַמָּרוֹם,

and Moses and Elijah never went up on high,

שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: ״הַשָּׁמַיִם שָׁמַיִם לַה׳

as it says: "The heavens are the heavens of God,

The steps (27)

  1. Proofרבי יוסי: Heaven and earth are separate domains
  2. ChallengeChallenge: God came down on Mount Sinai
  3. ResolutionAnswer: The Divine Presence stayed above ten טפחים
  4. ChallengeChallenge: His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives
  5. ResolutionAnswer: Again, above ten טפחים
  6. ChallengeChallenge: Moses went up to God
  7. ResolutionAnswer: Moses stayed below ten טפחים
  8. ChallengeChallenge: Elijah went up in a whirlwind
  9. ResolutionAnswer: Elijah also stayed below ten טפחים
  10. ChallengeChallenge: Moses grasped the throne and was covered by God's cloud
  11. ResolutionAnswer: Still below ten טפחים
  12. ChallengeChallenge: But Moses grasped the throne itself
  13. ResolutionAnswer: The throne was lowered to ten, and Moses held it from below
  14. QuestionWhere do we know the Ark cover was one handbreadth?
  15. ResponseLearn from the smallest measurement among the vessels
  16. ChallengeWhy not learn from the vessels themselves?
  17. ResolutionGrab too much and you hold nothing
  18. ChallengeThen why not learn from the even smaller ציץ?
  19. ResolutionA vessel is learned only from a vessel
  20. ChallengeWhy not learn from the crown, which can be tiny?
  21. ResolutionA vessel is learned from a vessel, not from decoration
  22. ChallengeThe table's frame is also just a finish
  23. ResolutionThe frame was underneath, holding up the table
  24. ChallengeWhat about the view that the frame was on top?
  25. ResolutionA new rule: learn from what the תורה measured
  26. Statementרב הונא: a face is at least one טפח
  27. ChallengeMaybe the 'face' means a different kind of face